David McLay Kidd on Tees

[Steve Sayre]

From Scott Gummer's "The Seventh at St. Andrews", quoting McLay Kidd:

" Tees at so many golf courses are an afterthought---if they receive any thought at all. The typical, flat, round, tiny helicopter pads set one after another have no artistic value whatsoever.

Here, we did something completey different....The tees on this course haven taken as much, and arguably more, effort than some of the greens complexes, which runs completely and utterly contrary to conventional golf course design.

The sophisticated golfer who investigates these kinds of things will realize that we built this from the whole cloth....this was a potato field, not an ancient landscape....I think these tee look especially amazing, like something that could be five hundred years old."

Are tees an afterthought?  Are there examples of outstanding designs?  Have they ever received as much "effort" as greens designs?  What courses have memorable tees?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Cornish and Whitten discuss it.

Landmark Tees are:

Someone's first thought on forward or multiple tees

RTJ's extensions to runway tees

Multiple Tees to break up the scale

Free Form Tees - Packard at Innisbrook

Sculpted Tees - Fazio putting them in their own setting, not just plopping them on the ground, hiding the cart path and often the other tees ahead from view.

[Adam Clayman]

First reaction to who builds memorable tees was Pete Dye. Some of his little nooks/ledges juting out of hillsides or through shoots, in Kohler Wisconsin are fondly recalled almost 20 years later.

Stanely Thompson also deserves mention.

[Bob_Huntley]

Does a perfect tee need elevation from the landing area?

I can think of a course, that apart from holes 3,4,5 and 18 has as good a collection of tees as anywhere else that I have played. Have a guess?

Bob

[Joel_Stewart]

My club has gotton away from simple square walk off tees to long elevated tees which I think is a shame.   Until I see Kidds course, I can't comment but it goes opposite to what I like.  Tees are simply a place to tee off and personally I think they should be low key.   It goes without statement that they need to be in the correct position for playing the hole but I prefer them to be non descript.

[Brian Phillips]

I think David and Paul Kimber have created some superb tee complexes at The Castle Course and they are worth studying.

See this link for photos:

http://gallery.mac.com/niblick#100018&view=carouseljs&sel=0

[Scott Szabo]

Steve,

An obvious choice for a course with memorable tees in Ballyneal, which has been discussed here ad nauseum.  I can't come up with another course I've seen like it.

Scott

[Gary Slatter]

Kidd's tees on The Castle Course are not all level, some are set for hooks and some for fades. Not sure how they'll all survive once the course is open but they look very interesting, and something new.

Interesting book, it's not for sale over here yet so my copy from Canada is making the rounds in town.  I found it leaves a lot of unfinished things, it maybe should have waited until the course was finished.  The course will be something special when it opens, the book is so so.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Gary:

I walked Castle with Paul Kimber and we discussed tees extensively. At no time did he mention they were angled to influence ball flight. Where did you get that information?

Anthony

[Joel_Stewart]

I looked at the web site and the other thread and didn't see anything revolutionary?  My expectations are they are very minimalist.  If they are angled, it will set the golf world on their ear.  Can you imagine Augusta having a 5 degree tilt on #18 for a cut or a 5 degree tilt on #10 for a draw.

[Jason Topp]

The course looks from pictures to be extremely intimidating, to the point that it would be torture for most in a strong wind.

 

[Ken Moum]

The course looks from pictures to be extremely intimidating, to the point that it would be torture for most in a strong wind.

I got to look at some of the holes on the back (the ones that looked most "finished" in the slide show) in July 2006, and I don't think it's going to be all that bad.

For instance, one of those photos is from the very back tee on #17, which makes it look almost impossible. In fact, from back there, it might be.

But as the photo of the green below shows, there's room to the left off the tee. And from the more forward tees, you don't have to carry the bay.

The second pic is one I took from a slightly more forward tee.

The third shows how big the target actually is.

[Jason Topp]

Kmoum:

Thanks for the pictures. It definitely looks more playable from the other viewpoints (although the 18th looks like a beast).

Is the 17th a reverse redan?  From the description in the book, it looked like it was although the term was never used.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

The play on 17 is to aim for the fairway left of the green and the ball will bounce on.

Anthony

[Patrick Glynn]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember reading that the tees at Bandon Trails are actually graded too. I didnt notice it myself, but there is apparently slight sloping to promote certain shot types/shapes.

[Ken Moum]

Kmoum:

Thanks for the pictures. It definitely looks more playable from the other viewpoints (although the 18th looks like a beast).

Is the 17th a reverse redan?  From the description in the book, it looked like it was although the term was never used.

I don't think it's got much of the Redan strategy to it, but there appears to be a wee bit of the 16th at Cypress Point in it.

One of thing that impressed me was the differences in the tees. I was playing Scottish golf with my wife and another couple. The other woman often fails to carry 100 yards off the tee but found many of the Scottish courses playable due the firmness of the ground.

At the 17th, DMK clearly recognozed that not everyone can make a carry on a par three, so the most forward tees could easily be played along the ground.

I like that.

K

[Gary Slatter]

Gary:

I walked Castle with Paul Kimber and we discussed tees extensively. At no time did he mention they were angled to influence ball flight. Where did you get that information?

Anthony

Anthony, I "saw" that information on one of my tours of the course, it was pointed out by one of the staff there. I hop the fence regularly as our course is within 100 yards of Castle 16 green.  Not every tee, but some of the tees.

[Gary Slatter]

The course looks from pictures to be extremely intimidating, to the point that it would be torture for most in a strong wind.

 

From the tees it looks more intimidating than it is.  People who have played it say it's not as tough as it looks.  The second walk round I went from green to tee and there's more room than it looks, although it's usually running in different directions and seldom flat in landing areas.  There is almost always a wind on the site and it will be a factor.

[Ryan Farrow]

Gary, are you sure that what you saw was just an attempt to tie in the tees to their natural surroundings, or in this case, their manufactured surroundings. The tees we were working on at Rock Creek had some of these slopes you talk about but they are not intended to have tee markers in those positions. Simply extending the grassing lines for tee boxes past the "flat" teeing area does wonders visually.

The first time I saw something truly different with tee boxes was at Mackenzie's Valley Club where the chipping areas would extend into the next tee box, all at the same mowing height. Its kind of a shame modern designers are still doing the same ole' thing and having these tee boxes look like tee boxes when they simply, don't have to.

[Kirk Gill]

I can think of a course, that apart from holes 3,4,5 and 18 has as good a collection of tees as anywhere else that I have played. Have a guess?

Garden City Golf Club?

[D_Malley]

ryan,
re:  teeing areas tying in with chipping areas of previous hole

Hanse Golf did this several times at applebrook, and it has always been one of the cool things at merion west, on their 9 green / 10 tee complex.  

[Mark_F]

The tees on this course haven taken as much, and arguably more, effort than some of the greens complexes,

Does this mean they are planning on playing (some of) the course in Reverse?

[Yannick Pilon]

Sebonack has the best set of tees I have seen so far.

The course was closed when I walked it in the fall two years ago.  From the back, you couldn't tell where the markers should go.  It's only further down the fairway, as you turned around, that you could see where the actual decks were.

I thought that was a very nice feature.  Although, I am not sure it is the most viable thing to do for any course.  The added maintenance must make it though on the maintenance budget.  I would love to hear from Tom Doak on this matter....

Does anyone have anything better to suggest?

YP

[Matthew Hunt]

Sebonack tees look really cool. I couple of times playing a multitude of course I have said to my playing patners that the green-staff could just mow a tee into flatish rough to give an a further ascetically pleasing position fo the positioning of the tees. Would this work?

For Tom, how were they constuct financially compared to the status quo appropach? Would you build simaler tees again?

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

This appears to be another case of the architect not giving a rat's pitooty about daily maintenance. Good luck to the poor bastard that has to walk mow those things, especially when it's a day that calls for side-to-side mowing.

Anthony