[CHrisB]

In another thread I asked this question but it was late in the thread and so I thought I'd ask it here and hopefully get a few answers.

Can anyone name a great course that:

(1) is under 7000 yards from the back tees
AND
(2) is wide
AND
(3) has average to slow green speeds?

If so, what makes the course great, and, how does it challenge good players?

[Geoffrey Childs]

Chris

Define average to slow green speeds. Most "great courses" have great agronomy these days too and that means at least quick greens.

[CHrisB]

Geoff,
I suppose "average to slow green speed" means that the greens aren't cut very low, so that the ball would never be in danger of getting away from the player (although the green may have bold countours which effectively increase the speed of some putts). If you want to think Stimpmeter, think 8 or slower.

The motivation for the question came from a thread started by Tom Doak where we were wondering whether a great course can still be designed at under 7000 yards, and whether a course at that length can still sufficiently challenge good players.

It seems to me that three "easy" ways to challenge good players is (i) to add length, (ii) to have narrow areas of play, and (iii) to ratchet up the green speeds. Most great courses have at least one of these three (although Pine Valley at 7 on the Stimpmeter would still be a great course), so I was wondering how many great courses have none of them, and in what ways those courses still challenge good players.

Identifying what makes such courses great could go a long way to answering how to design a great course under 7000 yards that still challenges good players, without having to resort to narrow corridors or fast greens.

Hopefully there will be many examples.

[Kyle Harris]

Chris,

I'd venture to say that most great players prefer faster greens to slowed ones.

[Jim Thompson]

Chris,

I'd venture to say that most great players prefer faster greens to slowed ones.

I assume that is because they prefer the greater test that comes from less margin for error.  So why don't great players prefer unforgiving designs?  Meant as a serious question, not a joke....

Cheers!

JT

[Jay Flemma]

Both Tobacco Road and Sawgrass USED to do that...

Isn't Crystal Downs under 7000?

[Tommy Williamsen]

If there are such animals I think they are most likely to be In GB&I.  Sean Arble's love, Pennard, qualifies.  I also think my love, Westward Ho! qualifies as well.

[CHrisB]

Consider North Berwick. Well under 7000 yards, plenty wide, with certainly average green speeds. I don't many would be offended if you call it a great course, but (how) does it sufficiently challenge the good player?

Without wind, with today's equipment it can be a pitch-and-putt, so it needs wind to be a challenge. It also has several awkward/blind shots, the occasional ball-buster hole like #2, and several entirely unique and quirky things like the redan, the stone wall, and the 16th and 17th greensites. But how many of those kinds of things could a modern designer really get away with?

[Greg Krueger]

Chris, Royal Dornach. Well under 7,000, wide playing avenues
and reasonable green speeds. Variety, wind, sandy soil and
incredible vistas are what makes it one of the best!

[Bob_Huntley]

Los Angeles Country Club.

Bob

[Tom Dunne]

Pacific Dunes.

[Mike_Cirba]

Chris,

What about Garden City?  Fisher's Island?

[Dan Kelly]

The Old Course?

[David_Elvins]

Chris,

THe question is biased against courses that hold pro tournaments.  I have no doubt that the Old Course would be under 7000 yards from the back tee if it didnt hold tournaments.  

Barnbougle Dunes is a course that qualifies under your criteria.  Links courses that do not hold tournaments and have fescue in their greens have the best chance of meeting your criteria.

[David Botimer]

In another thread I asked this question but it was late in the thread and so I thought I'd ask it here and hopefully get a few answers.

Can anyone name a great course that:

(1) is under 7000 yards from the back tees
AND
(2) is wide
AND
(3) has average to slow green speeds?

If so, what makes the course great, and, how does it challenge good players?

You just described Pacific Dunes, although the greens not REALLY slow, play average of 9-10 on Stimp.

How does it challenge?

a.  Mostly by weather (your choice of wind (summer AND winter) or rain (winter).

b.  Numerous forced carries off tee; e.g. 2,3,5,7,9,10,11,12,14,17.

c.  LOTS of sand.

d.  Many elevated / crowned greens; e.g. the signature hole #13 (now becoming one of the most photographed holes in the world - see golf.com website Dream 18, it's the only one on the list from BDGR ) has about a 30 foot rise from the fairway, not to mention the sand!

e.  It gets in your head!!!  Hitting a shot a few feet from a 90 foot cliff can do that!  #13 mentioned above?  The green is about 5 feet from the cliff.

f.  Anecdotallly, I've witnessed a scratch golfer / club pro shoot over 100 on a windy day, and an 11 handicap senior (age late 60's) shoot an 80 with birdies on 10, 11 and 13.....yes, he was 3 under through 4 holes on the back nine.

Why is it great?

SPECTACULAR scenery, no weak holes, ingenious routing,  no buildings competing for your attention, tremendous variety in holes, minimal earth movement to build the course.....

Was Marilyn Monroe beautiful because she had blonde hair or a great figure?  I don't know, but I know she was beautiful!

Like Mr. Doak said, "Our layout is short enough to give every golfer hope, but its rugged nature will test every facet of your game."

[Chris Kane]

Swinley Forest - it has good hole after good hole!

Not so sure it would test great players though.

[Phil McDade]

Lawsonia. Green speeds ought to be higher, but haven't been for several years now. Tips out at under 6,800 yards.

Add-on to the rest of the question: Lawsonia is Langford and Moreau's definitive course in many ways, with much of its strategy and enjoyment defined by its severely pushed-up greens, high-banked mounds and deep bunkers, and many greens with significant tilt or internal contours. Its width provides options for approaches to the greens and tacking around a hole, notably its par 5s and several par 4s. Premier players would attack it without much restraint, I'm sure, but even for the low handicappers, its unique design provides a challenge.

[CHrisB]

Chris,

What about Garden City?  Fisher's Island?

Mike,
Unfortunately I have not seen either of those courses. How does each course challenge the good player? Is Garden City the one with the extra-deep bunkers?

[Jim Nugent]

I think NGLA is under 7000 yards, and is wide.  How fast do its green speeds run?  

[Tim Rooney]

Jay.Crystal Downs is <6,600, has wonderful green movement.It is the Stereotypical Rembrandt from the Golden Age.

[Philippe Binette]

outside of the wild situation at the US Open, I don't think Shinnecock Hills keep their greens faster than 10...

I might be wrong on that

[Kalen Braley]

I wouldn't call the greens at PD "average to slow".  While they are not what I would call fast, they are certainly above average in the green speed department.  And certainly way above average in terms of how true they roll.

[Mike_Cirba]

Chris,

Ran outlined the challenge of both Garden City and Fisher's Island in his course profiles much better than I'm able to.  I think each gives a real flavor for the courses and I'd be happy to elaborate on any points in question.

One thing they have in common is that the ball tends to roll once it lands.

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