How many great courses

[Andrew Summerell]

… were designed primarily to hold professional tournaments ?

I know this is difficult to answer, because we don’t always know what was in the mind of the owner/developer/architect at the time of designing & building the course, but, I’d be interested in your thoughts from what we see in the architecture.

The Australian Open is being played on such a course at the moment, The Australian GC. It has members, but was re-designed in the 70’s specifically to host the Australian Open, & it is an incredibly uninteresting course. The Moonah Links Open course was also designed specifically for the Australian Open & it is exceptionally average.

Most of the great courses I have played around the world seemed not to have tournaments in mind when they were designed. Courses like Swinley Forest, Garden City & North Berwick (West), (3 of my all time favourites) even though they have held tournaments & qualifiers in the past, don’t play as though they were designed primarily for pro tournaments.

So, what ‘great’ courses were designed primarily for professional tournaments? I can’t think of too many.

[Philippe Binette]

none, and that's why they only hold the majors there...

seriously, is TPC at Sawgrass the only one... can't think of any other

[Tom_Doak]

Courses that were designed for tournament play (make your own judgments on whether they are "great" or not):

TPC at Sawgrass
Stadium Course at PGA West
Kiawah Island (Ocean)
Muirfield Village - debatable?
Augusta National - admittedly, this one is debatable, but if they didn't start with that in mind in 1932, it didn't take them long to change their minds

Nobody really built courses for professional tournaments back in the Golden Age because there wasn't any money in it.

Incidentally, I went around the Stadium course this fall for the first time in maybe 15 years.  It amazed me just how unimpressive was its appearance compared to many courses built since.  It still looked hard, but at an altogether different scale than most recent courses.

[Dan Kelly]

Hazeltine.

[Matthew Hunt]

The Belfery
The K Club
Celtic Manor
Valderama re-do

A sad reflection on Ryder Cup venues I feel. Would a lot of Trump and most of the TPC's come under this label? Tom, I have to say that Augusta does not come under this label because I believe that the Masters was held because the members did not want a US Open.

[Peter Pallotta]

Andrew
Tom mentions Augusta. I read an article by Mackenzie describing the course they were about to build (in the process of building actually). He goes through all 18 holes, and what struck me was that each hole had tees at both a "Regular Distance" and a "Championship Distance," with the latter averaging about 25 yards longer than the former. I don't know if this was unusual for American golf courses at the time, i.e. if other new or newish courses were being designed for both member and expert play.

In the same article, Mackenzie writes about his course what's probably been written a thousand times since (in some form or another) about other courses:

"It must give the average player a fair chance, and at the same time, it must require the utmost from the expert who tries for sub-par scores."

Peter

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom Fazio and co. - in conjunction with the Royal Canadian Golf Association - have designed a new course near Montreal specifically to serve as host of the Canadian Open every few years. It's not open yet though.

What's it called, Philippe? Terrebonne?

The Nicklaus deal with the RCGA at Glen Abbey, back in the late 1970s, was basically the same. I believe Nicklaus' mandate was to design and construct a course to permanently host the Canadian Open.

[Andrew Summerell]

The Nicklaus deal with the RCGA at Glen Abbey, back in the late 1970s, was basically the same. I believe Nicklaus' mandate was to design and construct a course to permanently host the Canadian Open.

He had a similar deal with the re-design of The Australian.

[Steve_Lovett]

Tom:

I'm interested in your impressions of your trip around TPC Sawgrass.  In what way did you find it unimpressive?  Did you expect something different?  Would you consider it's features and edges understated compared with some of what is being built today?

- Steve

[Kalen Braley]

Wasn't Pine Valley implicity bulit this way to challenge the best players in the game.  They must have thought/come to the conclusion that eventually they would hold competitive matches out there.

And seeing how the place wasn't, for lack of a better word, "overgrown" by trees back then, they could have supported much larger galleries than they could now.

[Greg Krueger]

I have to agree with Dan Kelly on Hazeltine. They even say it
in their mission statement.

[Andy Troeger]

Incidentally, I went around the Stadium course this fall for the first time in maybe 15 years.  It amazed me just how unimpressive was its appearance compared to many courses built since.  It still looked hard, but at an altogether different scale than most recent courses.

Tom,
I'd be interested to know what made you think that as well. I played it for the first time on Monday and thought it was fabulous although my friend and playing partner described it on about the 4th tee as "Harbour Town on steroids"  

[Jim Nugent]

How about some of Trump's courses?

Wait, I forgot you said "great".  

[Tommy Williamsen]

I'm not so sure the appellation great applies but Trump Bedmimster was designed to hold a USGA event.  It is very good.
More recent is Liberty National.
Whistling Straights also applies.

[Mark_F]

Andrew,

You don't think the lack of quality of Moonah Links Open has more to do with the designer chosen than the brief given to him?

[Andrew Summerell]

You don't think the lack of quality of Moonah Links Open has more to do with the designer chosen than the brief given to him?

That may well be true, Mark, but it brings me to my next question.

Do we have a different view, these days, of what a tournament course should like?

[Tom_Doak]

Steve and Andy:

I was referring to the Stadium course at PGA West -- not the TPC at Sawgrass.  Sorry for the confusion.  I last saw the TPC at Sawgrass a couple of years ago, just before they started renovating it.

When PGA West opened, everybody thought it was a big, mean golf course, but it looked puny compared to Stone Eagle or The Quarry at La Quinta or Chambers Bay.  I also mused at the fact that when it was designed 23 years ago -- I drew the original plan for Mr. Dye -- we didn't really leave any room for expansion because we didn't imagine it would need to be harder than we were already making it.

[Jeff Spittel]

The second course at Redstone Golf Club was built specifically to host the Houston Open. Bowling alley fairways and water everywhere. Meh.

[Sam Morrow]

The second course at Redstone Golf Club was built specifically to host the Houston Open. Bowling alley fairways and water everywhere. Meh.

 I think they should try again.

[Andy Troeger]

Steve and Andy:

I was referring to the Stadium course at PGA West -- not the TPC at Sawgrass.  Sorry for the confusion.  I last saw the TPC at Sawgrass a couple of years ago, just before they started renovating it.

When PGA West opened, everybody thought it was a big, mean golf course, but it looked puny compared to Stone Eagle or The Quarry at La Quinta or Chambers Bay.  I also mused at the fact that when it was designed 23 years ago -- I drew the original plan for Mr. Dye -- we didn't really leave any room for expansion because we didn't imagine it would need to be harder than we were already making it.

Times have changed...    

[Brock Peyer]

Will Tiger eventually design/build a course to host his tournament?

[Sam Morrow]

Will Tiger eventually design/build a course to host his tournament?

I don't know for sure but it certainly wouldn't surprise me.

[Mike_Cirba]

Wasn't Pine Valley implicity bulit this way to challenge the best players in the game.  They must have thought/come to the conclusion that eventually they would hold competitive matches out there.

And seeing how the place wasn't, for lack of a better word, "overgrown" by trees back then, they could have supported much larger galleries than they could now.

Kalen,

I don't think Pine Valley was ever built with the idea of hosting championship golf.

It was more built for the best players in the Philly region to hone their games, better to compete against other golfing cities on championship courses elsewhere.

Even when there were fewer trees, the sandy landforms wouldn't have facilitated a large number of spectators any better than say, Sand Hills would today.

[Mike_Cirba]

I'm not so sure the appellation great applies but Trump Bedmimster was designed to hold a USGA event.  It is very good.

Tommy,

Yes, even though the par threes are almost completely lacking in variety, it is still very good.