[Chuck Brown]

Tom,
 
Jack Nicklaus often alludes to the fact that his clients are telling him that they want "long."  I presume that the reason is one or more of the following:
a.  You need length of some magnitude if you hope to use your course for things like Open qualifiers, Nationwide events, state am events.
b.  There is some cachet associated with "7,000 yards," such that course raters and reviewers give you points for pure length.
c.  It is ego or some similar motivation (prediction as to the future of golf equipment technology?) on the part of the architect's clients.

Are you getting lots of clients who tell you, "I want a 7,000-yard course..."?
 

[Matthew Hunt]

When some-one says that a course was to easy for them I say "I take it you shot 18 then?"!

[Geoffrey Childs]

Well written Mike.  You made it much clearer then I did but I think we are on the same page here.

Thank you, Geoffrey.   I agree that Emmett was a master at this, as well.   Have you been to Leatherstocking yet?

Mike

Leatherstocking is a course I really need t go and visit and I feel negligent that I have not done so as yet.

My old town course that I was a member of for a dozen years was an Emmet with great variety and quirk.  The last of it was removed by Stephen Kay a number of years ago so that the seniors could finish every hole without throwing a ball out of a bunker and to speed up play.

[Tim Gavrich]

Is it coincidence that after a few holes have been lengthened, Pine Valley's longest set of tees adds up to 6,999 yards?  I doubt it, personally.

Does the fact that PVGC remains sub-7,000 constitute a bit of a middle-finger pointed at the inflation of course lengths?

[John Kavanaugh]

Every Halloween for the last 7 years I have played the 7,200 yd tees at my home club because it is fun.  The past two weeks I have been playing the 6200 yd tees because it is fun.  More tees equals more fun.

[Kevin Atkinson]

I also agree with Geoffrey.  Variety is KEY!  I also agree with Tom Doak's length evaluation vs. par for the course as long as diverse overall hole length and shot variety remains from hole to hole.  

I am currently working with a club where there overall course variety in both length and shot types are lacking.  They also happen to be a fairly "short" par 71 golf course (6,650).  From day one, I heard from the many members that they wanted to reach for 7,000 yards to help make them more competitive with other area clubs...I hear that A LOT!  I do not agree with that philosophy if we cannot achieve good length and shot variety.  Currently, I have suggested that we increase the length of the overall course to 6,800-6,850 and REDUCE the par of the course from 71 to 70.  The resulting hole variety will dramatically improve and in my opinion so with the golf course.  

I don't think 7,000 yards is that magical, but most of my Clients do.  The key is variety and if 7,000 + yards happens to fit....great!

[David Federman]

This is a great topic. What drives me nuts is the sight of high handicappers playing from the back tees, making their rounds miserable and the pace of play miserable for everyone behind them.

Assuming average course conditions - not hard and fast August, nor wet and soggy May - for me and most golfers of my length and handicap (8-16) 6500 yards is plenty of golf. That length gives me the opportunity for some mid to short irons into some of the par 4s; sometimes, but rarely an opportunity to hit a par 5 in two, but if played well, always a mid to short iron for my third shot; and a shot at all the par 3s.

A 7000 yard course for most non-competitive amateurs is just too long and requires a long iron or fairway wood for almost every par 4 second shot. The length virtually destroys the strategy envisioned by the architect for even the golfers in this group.

I believe the course should be designed and set up best at the 6500 yard mark. To design a course strategically to be played at 7000 plus yards, deprives the vast majority of golfers of the optimum set-up.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I played quite a few course in Britain that were in the 6400 yard range.  I A few were par 69 and the others 70 or 71.   What facinated me were the number of par fours that were over 400 yards.  Some of them had 6 or 7.  The par fives were short and some of the par threes were short as well.  I thought they were very hard.

[David Federman]

We played over in Ireland this past Fall and the tees were set up at less than 6400 yards on  every course we played (Ballybunion; Lahinch; Enniscrone; Carne; County Sligo) - with the wind and variety of holes the courses needed no more length to be all the challenge we needed plus some.

[Garland Bayley]

I have to disagree with Tom on this one. A course with 18 holes of 400 yards each is 7200. Driving the ball near 300 yards leaves, wedge shots in on all 18 holes. I think there are lots of players that can do this with todays technology. With todays technology, courses should be extended to at least 8000 yards for the tour professionals. Extending a course to 7000 yards today is like extending it to 6500 yards 20 years ago.

The math geek in me would suggest a course built to not account for touring professionals would come in something like the following from the tips.

150, 170, 190, 220
330, 345, 360, 375, 390, 405, 420, 435, 450, 465
520, 560, 600, 640

total 7015


Ideally, I think the virtual vaseline should be taken off the ball, and we could go back to using much less real estate for our courses.

[Garland Bayley]

... A 7000 yard course for most non-competitive amateurs is just too long and requires a long iron or fairway wood for almost every par 4 second shot. The length virtually destroys the strategy envisioned by the architect for even the golfers in this group....

I don't believe this.

[Mike_Cirba]

On a day where a huge, dark pall is cast over Major League Baseball and the adenaline-fueled religion of Power now seems to trump smarts and finesse in every sport, wouldn't it be nice to see the USGA finally rein in equipment?

What a dreamer I am.  

[Andrew Summerell]

I’m always interested to hear scratch & pro golfers say a course was too short to be interesting, because they had to lay up to much or had too many wedges to hit into greens. The problem has more to do with the quality of course they are playing or their understanding of it. Tiger Woods played 3 irons & 5 irons off many of the tees at Oakmont’s par 4’s & 5’s. Does that mean that Oakmont is no good? Of course not!

A golf course needs to be designed to extract the best out of the land available whether it measures 6700y or 7400y. Unfortunately, many owners quest to have a course that could host (or appear to host) pro tournaments & qualifiers ruins the opportunity for them to have the best course possible.

The Australian GC, where the Australian Open is being played at the moment, is a perfect example. The course was re-designed in the 70’s primarily to hold the Australian Open & it is one of (if not the) the most uninteresting courses in Australia’s top 50. I would be interested to know how many ‘great’ courses were originally designed with pro tournaments in mind. I might start a thread about that.

[jefffraim]

The Highland Course at Primland which won Best New Over $75 is 7,034 from the back tees, the course was built at 3,000 feet of elevation, so you gain about 5% in yardage, which makes it play around 6,682 yards.   There are 5 par 5's and 5 par 3's. Longest par 5 is 612 yards and the longest par 3 is 220 yards.

Jeff

[Mike_Cirba]

Can anyone name a great course that:

(1) is under 7000 yards from the back tees,
(2) is wide, and
(3) has average to slow green speeds?

If so, what makes the course great and how does it challenge good players?

Chris,

I think I saw you at Pine Valley one time.  

[CHrisB]

I'll ask in a clearer way...

Can anyone name a great course that:

(1) is under 7000 yards from the back tees
AND
(2) is wide
AND
(3) has average to slow green speeds?

If so, what makes the course great and how does it challenge good players?

[Andrew Summerell]

Can anyone name a great course that:

(1) is under 7000 yards from the back tees,
(2) is wide, and
(3) has average to slow green speeds?

If so, what makes the course great and how does it challenge good players?

Chris,

I think I saw you at Pine Valley one time.  

That's spooky. Are you now able to quote before the quote has been made?

[CHrisB]

Andrew,
I deleted the post and re-worded it to make it a little clearer. I guess I wasn't fast enough.

Can anyone name a great course that:

(1) is under 7000 yards from the back tees,
(2) is wide, and
(3) has average to slow green speeds?

If so, what makes the course great and how does it challenge good players?

Chris,

I think I saw you at Pine Valley one time.  

Mike,
You did, but Pine Valley definitely does NOT have average to slow green speeds!!!!

[Tom_Doak]

Garland:

My turn to disagree.  Why would you not have any holes between 220 yards and 330?  And why would you not have any holes between 465 yards and 520?  Those are some of the most interesting distances.

[Garland Bayley]

Garland:

My turn to disagree.  Why would you not have any holes between 220 yards and 330?  And why would you not have any holes between 465 yards and 520?  Those are some of the most interesting distances.

The purpose was to be very formulaic so that it would be easy to  show reasonable lengths could make 7000 yards. Personally, I would not favor creating a course with those uniformly distributed hole lengths. My average par 4 would be longer than the example given. The land would dictate the individual lengths.

[Mike_Cirba]

Chris,

Comparatively speaking, Pine Valley's greens are not kept in that edge of sanity speed that other's like ANGC and Oakmont are, especially considering the amount of internal contour at PV.  

When discussing the challenges of PV, blazing green speeds is hardly in the top 10.  

[CHrisB]

Mike,
Understood, but of course Pine Valley's greens are certainly well above average in speed (just not off the charts like Oakmont or ANGC as you said). Of course "above average" might mean something different in Philadelphia than it would in Texas or Scotland or Bandon. If you want to think of average to slow green speeds w.r.t. the stimpmeter, think 8 or slower.

[Mike_Cirba]

Chris,

Would Garden City qualify?

In any case, I would think one quality that would help considerably is the prevalence of wind.  

[Chuck Brown]

On a day where a huge, dark pall is cast over Major League Baseball and the adenaline-fueled religion of Power now seems to trump smarts and finesse in every sport, wouldn't it be nice to see the USGA finally rein in equipment?

What a dreamer I am.  

The common link between baseball's failure to regulate performance-enhancing substances and golf's failure to regulate advancing technology may be the threat of litigation.

With baseball, the threats come from the MLBPA, and players' agents.
With golf, the threats come from one or more ball manufacturers.

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