Has time shown that RMW is poorly routed?

[Brian Walshe]

Thanks for the invite to join the thread Mark.

Neil,

Great diagrams of some of the holes in question and probably the most compelling evidence to support Chris and his premise.  Look at where Mackenzie planned for the ball to finish from the tee shots of both the "good" and "average" player.  Yes the "good" player would carry the hazards but the landing area for today's "good" golfer would be 60m past where he indicated and never present even the slightest issue.  Likewise the "average" player today does not have to play away from the hazards because they are unable to carry them.  They hit the ball to about where the "good" player was supposed to.  Had he left room behind the tees perhaps today we would still see the ball landing in the areas Mackenzie planned for them to.

Mackenzie would have seen as much or more increase in distance the ball travels in his lifetime as we have seen, so surely, just like the (apparently unqualified) architects of today he should have thought about leaving a little room on the longer holes just in case?  Isn't that would both you and Mr Clayton would do if presented that commission today?

Crow's course record says more about how extraordinary that one round was than anything about RMW's resistance to scoring.  Might be more interesting to look at the best 10 gross stroke scores in certain events over a period of years.

Oh and Megan 8 and Jennifer 2.  

[Kevin Pallier]

Neil

Thanks for the pics of the routings that you've shown thus far - much appreciated. Are you able to show the maps at a greater range so that one can see the routings in greater detail ?

[Rich Goodale]

[quote author=Justin Ryan
  If you really believed such an off topic premise was worthy of discussion then you should have started a new thread and seen where it went.  Unless you actually wanted to provide Rich Goodall with a couple of chuckles.

Hi Justin.  It's Goodale (with an  'e'--think "Goodbeer"), but who's counting....

I really do appreciate these Aussie-centric threads because so many of you guys have the same sort of "I don't give a s**t what anybody else says, no matter how "qualified" or posh they might think they are, I'm going to say what I think, and my opinion is as good as yours, until you prove me otherwise" attitude that we used to have in the USA.  Now, far too many Americans are fawning sycophants who will sell their soul to spend some time at a posh course/restaurant/beach club, with a posh host.  Or buy their way in.

Keep up the good work, antipodeans!  One of these days I'll get down there, and as long as I don't get chucked out of Royal Dornoch in the interim due to blasphemy or poor dress sense, I'll be able to find out for myself whether or not RM--W or E or Composite or any combination of the above--is poorly routed, or not.  Those will be fine days.

Keep up the diatribe!

Rich

[Neil_Crafter]

Brian
So these plan extracts support Chris' theory do they? As I understood it Chris is suggesting that these hazards no longer present any real challenge off the tee, and by inference, must have at some time in the past. Acccordingly the routing is flawed as there is no space behind the tees on these holes to allow the bunkers to come into play once more.

But they never really were in play, at least not to reasonable hitters and Mackenzie and Russell must have been content with that condition as they built the holes that way. You cannot seriously blame these two long dead gents for not envisaging how far golf balls would travel 80 years into the future. How far into the future would you have them allow for if 80 years has proven insufficient? Ask any architect today if they are building 80 years of length increases into the courses they are designing and they will be calling the men in white coats.

As I've said before, if they were to have left that adequate room for expansion behind every hole, the routing of the West course would have been different and there would have probably been less East course holes that could have been fitted onto the land. Who can say. You would try to leave some room, but how much, and at what cost to the routing and land use etc.

As to Crow's round, certainly it must have been extraordinary, but it still hasn't been bettered despite 50 years of technological improvement. The course must bear some credit for that, even if you argue that the quality of player is down in the subsequent 50 years (not sure how you could prove that one).

Justin
I'm sure there are many things that Mackenzie would despair of if he could see them today, and people carrying his bunkers on 2, 4 and 18W so readily would not be all that high on his list I wouldn't have thought.

Certainly appears that some mounding was suggested centrally in the 1st fairway, perhaps broken ground with some rough maybe. Would certainly make the tee shot a bit more interesting but what distance from the tee would you set it? Remember RMW is a members course!

Kevin
I will try and post the entire coloured plan and the Sporting Globe plan when I get the chance.

Rich
We look forward to your visit down under with anticipation! We will continue our diatribe accordingly with your blessing!

[Justin Ryan]

Does anyone know what the Hawtree plan said about the holes that have been discussed, if anything? Or have a copy?  I seem to remember there was talk a few years back about moving the bunker on 4, with John Lindsay involved.

Certainly appears that some mounding was suggested centrally in the 1st fairway, perhaps broken ground with some rough maybe. Would certainly make the tee shot a bit more interesting but what distance from the tee would you set it? Remember RMW is a members course!

Neil, you could stick a bunker out there at a length to challenge the better players, in the 230-260m metre range I guess.  I wouldn't see mounding working.  The vast bulk of members would still have their gentle opener (except maybe the women with the second/third shots!!).  One small possible benefit of the dispersion in distance between the elite and ordinary golfer.  Has it ever been mooted?  

Rich, I'll remember the spelling for next time.  But don't expect an apology.

[Neil_Crafter]

Kevin
Here are the overall plans that I extracted the hole views from. Hope you find them interesting.
regards Neil

[Andrew Summerell]

Thanks for those, Niel. It's interesting to see how much the 7th has moved.

[Mark_F]

Mark, the topic was about RMW.  Woodlands has perhaps one example of the bunkering the discussion centred on.  Why would you choose Woodlands which is topographical remote from RMW rather than say Peninsula or Victoria?

Because I haven't played Victoria or Peninsula (North).

I don't think it is topographically remote from RM in the sense we were talking about.

2 W may not, but 4,12 and 18 W run over ridges or rises, with the tees unable to be moved back, and the hazards clearly going to be less useful in the future.  It is interesting that this is the approach used at KH on 1&6 and 8&16, and at Woodlands on 2, 10 and 18. I am not 100% sure, but at Commonwealth, there would only be two such holes routed that way - 6 and 10 - both par fives, which could be/have been lengthened.

From The Confidential Guide, about Yarra Yarra:

"The routing of the holes is not a particular feature - like many of the other Sandbelt courses, the holes march back and forth..."

So you could say it is a 'flaw' at all Sandbelt courses?

Unless you actually wanted to provide Rich Goodall with a couple of chuckles.

I am sure you will find Rich is capable of finding his own chuckles without help from me. (probably from looking in the mirror as he dresses?)

[Bill_McBride]

Neil, is that the composite routing in bold on the black / white routing plan?  Or the West?

Thanks.

[Neil_Crafter]

Bill
That is just the routing of the West Course. You will see other holes on the main property that are unnumbered and these belong to Alex Russell's East course. The West Course holes 13-16  in the separate small parcel at the top left are not in the Composite and I think two other West holes (8 and 9) are not included in the Composite and all the East course holes apart from the short par 3 to the right of the 4th West are included to make up. The Composite Course was first mooted and used in the 1959 Canada Cup.
Neil

[ed_getka]

Neil,
   Great research, I learned a lot from the discussion. Your perserverance in the face of obstinancy is admirable.

[Kevin Pallier]

Neil

Many thanks for the routing plans - much obliged.

KP

[David_Elvins]

Bill,
Traditional composite routing in pink.

[Neil_Crafter]

David
Nice work showing the Composite's routing.

KP
A pleasure and glad you enjoyed them.

Ed
Perserverance is one of the necessary skills of a GCA, also patience is another!

Andrew
For some reason the club was not happy with the 7th which played to the north, and was essentially the old Sandringham 9th hole remodelled. I suspect when the clubhouse did not get built in the location they had planned for, the opportunity was there to build a new hole which played to the west. Ths was designed by Ivo Whitton in the late 30's - what Russell thought of Whitton doing this work heaven only knows. Its a pretty decent hole though!

[David_Elvins]

what Russell thought of Whitton doing this work heaven only knows.

Do you really think he would have been offended or against the idea?  Whitton worked closely with Russell on the East and West course and the article that accompanies the plan you posted quotes Russell as saying that Whitton deserves a lot of credit for 4W.

[Neil_Crafter]

David
That's a good question and we can only speculate on the answer. Certainly Russell credits Whitton with giving him good advice and suggestions on 4W, but its a different matter when the job of building a new par 3 is taken away from you and given to that adviser. That's all I am saying. I don't actually know if there are any historical records about this and will ask Dr Green if he knows.
Neil

[Sean_A]

Did Dr Mac route the East & West so there could be a composite course?  Its remarkable how well the composite fits.  There are minor hitches, but this isn't at all bad considering that essentially a third course was doable.  From looking at the plan, I don't see how Dr Mac can be faulted.  Its a fairly tight property for two courses.  More importantly, there are loads of angles and corners to deal with.  It would be interesting to know what an archie of today might have done differently to given that there are 36 holes and a composite to be considered.

Ciao

[Chris Kane]

Your perserverance in the face of obstinancy is admirable.

This is a curious thing to say Ed.  Once Neil addressed the issue - with a well constructed arguments and good evidence - there was no obstinacy that I can see.

Prior to Neil's post #55, no-one had attempted to show why my premise was flawed, instead preferring to avoid the question and performing victory dances without winning the argument.

The real success of this thread is that it wasn't ruined by Mark Ferguson.  This is the first Australian thread for quite a while where this is the case, despite his best efforts.

[Mark_F]

The real success of this thread is that it wasn't ruined by Mark Ferguson.  This is the first Australian thread for quite a while where this is the case, despite his best efforts.

I made no such effort.

The fact that you think so shows how insipid you really may be.

Matt Ward had you nailed three years ago on the Barnbougle thread, and you haven't found a spine since.

The question about Woodlands was an honest one. If you believe otherwise, then your legitimacy to post here is questionable, as you are clearly more beholden to what your fellow cadre may think of you than responding to something outside your comfort zone.

So my opinion of David Scaletti's photography in The Sandbelt is different from all of you.  I apologise for having a mind of my own.  

It wasn't me that 'ruined' the thread about Ogilvy's round with hickorys at RM - it was Danny Goss farcically attempting to read something that didn't exist into my response.  Not that I would expect a jellyfish like you to point that out.

Find a soul, Chris.