[Bill Brightly]

Wayne posted this really interesting Flynn quote under another thread.

“…our method of building Golf Courses varies somewhat from the general practice in that we use considerably greater quantities of material in developing construction.  This is brought about by blending slopes naturally into surrounding surfaces, so as to present a pleasing effect to the eye, and not marring the landscape.  Naturally this sort of construction is more expensive than that obtained from stereotype ideas, but in the long run great savings may be effected in the maintenance expense by the elimination of costly hand work.”

This is not to disparage Flynn at all, but I find the "business" side of GCA fascinating. The above letter is written to the Rockefellers. So am I wrong in assuming that Flynn knew he was probably siginificantly more expensive than his competition? Isn't he selling here, rather than pouring out his soul?

Isn't he preparing the owner for the subsequent charges that will have to be paid, but pointing out that this expense will be offset by maintenance savings down the road?

[JESII]

Bill,

Do you not think the guys today have to be salesmen?

[Bill Brightly]

Sure I do. But I think it is rare to get an insight into what an Old Dead Guy may have included in his proposal.

For example, I was researching what my club did in the 20's when we moved from a 9-hole to an new site and built 18-holes. I read the old board minutes, and even a special memo from the Grounds Chair. He mentions receiving a "proposition" from both A.W. Tillinghast and Stiles & Van Kleek, with one expected shortly from Chas Banks, an associate of the recently deceased Seth Raynor. Four days later there is a special board meeting and they hire Banks.

I would LOVE to have read the "propositions" submitted by each ODG, but nothing was saved. Why did we pick Banks? Was he less expensive than Tilly or did we want a MacRaynor?

My club is 5 miles from Ridgewood CC, the consensus best course in North Jersey, built in 1929, 3 years after we said no to Tilly.  The history of both clubs would be far different had we said yes!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bill,

I am going to guess that Flynn felt he was up against Raynor and wanted to subtly distinguish his style from theirs - i.e., broad, natural slopes vs. manufactured ones.  

He may have had an inkling that his courses cost more, but if it was a letter to the Rockerfellers, he might also have presumed that product would drive the decision more than bottom dollar.  In fact, he might have believed that they would want to buy a more expensive course, equating it with "better" regardless of relative general cost differences between architects.

Raynor was an engineer, but Toomey and Flynn are, I believe, generally credited with the earliest engineering bid quantities, etc. and could offset a higher known cost against supposedly less accurate lower estimates.

Again, just a guess.

BTW, assuming human nature doesn't change, those seeking professional services are more likely to select a firm on creativity and quality over price.  If they are doing a second project, they tend to stick with the same consultant, providing they have a good experience, because they are then more comfortable that the project can be delivered on budget.

[Bill Brightly]

Jeff,

I agree with your points, and I can't wait to hear Wayne fill in some of the blanks about the proposal sent to the Rockefellers.

Was there competition? If yes, from whom?

In my Cornish and Whitten book, the course listed in Tarrytown is Pocantico Hills. Is this the course Flynn was proposing?

[JESII]

Bill,

I think Pocantico is the course from the Rockefeller Estate.

[TEPaul]

I certainly would not say Flynn was implying (knowingly or unknowingly) his courses were more expensive.

What he was doing is selling a product that could be very accurately costed going in and we feel he certainly understood that kind of thing very much appealed to his general type of client which just happened to include a virtual laundry list of very rich and very famous men who were most all extremely good businessmen themselves. People like that appreciate cost itemization, cost efficiencies of scale and accurately costing the finished product going in.

Flynn may've been the first to take this tact in this comprehensive way. It's one of the reasons he did so many plan and drawing iterations for clients but once a plan was finally settled on, the company stuck right to it religously in construction.

This is one of the reasons the company got so upset with Dick Wilson for taking liberties on his own at Shinnecock.

By the way, Flynn was obviously known for his cost efficiencies and cost itemizing. Hugh Wilson of Merion bragged that when Flynn was the greenkeeper he could tell you what every green cost to maintain annually to the nickel.

[Bill Brightly]

I certainly would not say Flynn was implying (knowingly or unknowingly) his courses were more expensive.

Really, Tom? I think this statement clearly shows Flynn recognized his "competition":

"Naturally this sort of construction is more expensive than that obtained from stereotype ideas, but in the long run great savings may be effected in the maintenance expense by the elimination of costly hand work.”

Does any of your research show what projects Flynn failed to  get and who got the work?

[wsmorrison]

Flynn did not advertise his design services, except in a series of 3 ads in 1916.  However the ads were primarily to sell golf standards (he patented the basket standard) and not golf architecture services.  Flynn only worked on a few courses per year.  From 1909 to 1945 he only had 52 original designs, a few of which were never built.  Flynn didn't bother with the sales and marketing end of the business.  He got his business through a network of connections and the quality of the work.

Raynor was long dead when Flynn was awarded the Pocantico Hills job.  I don't think he would have gotten the job anyway.  Nothing he built met the requirements of the family, that is an unobtrusive golf course that was routed and blended into the natural features on the lawns of the family estate.

The Rockefeller family did a long and exhaustive search before settling on their number one choice.  We know of several architects that petitioned for the position but the Rockefeller family and their employees took a long time deciding.  Basically the selection process came down to two finalists and Flynn was selected over Ross.  It is apparent from correspondence that Flynn's work at Merion and Shinnecock Hills helped the decision making process.  Flynn's ability to accurately estimate the cost of building the golf course, as Tom said, down to the nickle was also important.

Of course the Rockefeller family could afford anything they wanted to.  However they did not waste money.  From an early age, JD Rockefeller, Jr. learned to keep a ledger of his income and expenditures.  At one time they owned more than 2% of the American economy, yet they watched their pennies.  There was a dispute between Flynn and Rockefeller over expenditures when Flynn finished the golf course and was working on the family gardens.  Flynn didn't flinch and stood his ground.  He appealed to their long term perspective of overall costs including initial construction and ongoing maintenance.  Flynn's statement argues that one should consider long term costs and not simply up front costs.  This and his itemized and very accurate cost estimates appealed to the Rockefellers as businessmen and as the underwriters.

Given that not all of Flynn's routings and designs required a great deal of architecture and construction, the use of natural features would certainly help to offset the initial cost of tying in the features to the surrounds.  I don't think Flynn is implying that his initial costs for the entire golf course had to be more expensive.  Even though fill was brought in to tie into the surrounds on some holes and these holes would be more expensive than stereotypical designs, it wasn't necessary to do so on every hole because of the way he routed and used natural features and site specific designs (and not templates).  

To use fill to tie in is initially more expensive than not to.  Nobody doubts this.  However, according to Flynn it was less expensive over the long run.  It is also true that Flynn used a great deal of natural features, especially at Pocantico where the mandate was to make it a low profile course.  It is Bill's assumption that Flynn's approach is necessarily more expensive when in fact it may only be so on a hole by hole basis but not necessarily so on a course by course basis.

Flynn was a transition architect and a groundbreaker in a number of areas.  He didn't want to be bound by convention and imitation.  He believed in a modern American design theory and put it into practice.  I think it was differentiated enough that he did not rely on salesmanship but rather an engaging personality and exceptional talent.  His one foray into marketing was to ask the Rockefeller family for a testimonial to present to potential clients.  The family did not want to do that.  They wrote a highly complimentary letter after it was completed but it was not to be used in any marketing or sales effort.  We just don't think Flynn cared for and was probably not very good at self-promotion.

[Bill Brightly]

Thanks, Wayne. That is a lot of good information.

You and Tom obviously know far more about Flynn than I do, but I think ALL architects have to deal with the business side of things, as distasteful as that might be, and I think your original Flynn quote shows him ackowledging as much.

Oh yeah, I also LOVED this little swipe at Raynor:

"Raynor was long dead when Flynn was awarded the Pocantico Hills job.  I don't think he would have gotten the job anyway.  Nothing he built met the requirements of the family, that is an unobtrusive golf course that was routed and blended into the natural features on the lawns of the family estate."

Wouldn't want you to think I missed it... I think they call this "raking the gloves" in boxing...

And this probably a really stupid question, but what is the status of the Pocantico course? I live 15 miles from there and have never heard of it!

[wsmorrison]

Pocantico Hills is the family estate up the hill from Sleepy Hollow/Tarrytown off Bedford Road.  It just may be the finest estate in America both in terms of natural beauty on bluffs overlooking the Hudson River and in terms of building architecture, art collections and gardens, oh and the golf course.

The family was well aware of Macdonald and Raynor's work around the NY metropolitan area and Sleepy Hollow was neighboring their estate.   The family specifically mentioned that the course was not meant to stand out and draw attention to itself as it was laid out on lawns and through spectacular gardens.  The family desired the course to harmonize with the surrounds and lead the golfers on a journey around the grounds.   Perched greens, geometric forms and overtly man-made features was not asked for nor delivered.

The course still exists, although the greens have gotten dramatically smaller.  Interestingly, there are no fairway lines, the lawns are kept at the equivalent of first cut of rough.  So it plays longer than its stated length of 5673 yards.  There are 13 greens with one a double green, so the course reverses on itself several times to create an 18-hole course.  While it is squeezed in a few places by specimen trees and gardens, the overall feel is very open and there are opportunities to play courses within a course including a series of 17 par 3s.

It doesn't get much play outside of the family to whom it is a welcome feature that brings together generations of family members some of whom play golf and others that like to roll down the hills and play in the pastoral setting.  The low profile nature of the course works in that setting and there are many portions of the course that cannot be seen from the drives and paths on the property.  Here is a low resolution image of the plan for the course.  In the end, the first and tenth tees were placed in different spots.  The 1st tee on the opposite side of the Playhouse and the 10th near the 9th green and not down the hill on the opposite side of the lake from the 8th/10th green.

[Bill Brightly]

Well, I think that is just about the coolest thing I have learned in a while...Thanks for sharing that.

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