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wsmorrison

Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2007, 10:25:48 AM »
My understanding of a punchbowl green must be mistaken.  I thought the definition was dependent more on the green contours acting as a bowl rather than the green sitting in an amphitheater setting.  It appears that the Pocono Manor green actually is crowned.  Is this a punchbowl green?

The feeding of balls to one area is a contrived feature that doesn't dictate strategy off the tee or approaches.  Once in a while this is an acceptable design and one that can be fun to play.  As a template, I don't think it is a concept worth using repeatedly.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2007, 10:27:33 AM by Wayne Morrison »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2007, 10:29:34 AM »
Don't go soft now Wayne...this is a crutch these guys overused because of their incredible lack of creativity and appreciation of naturalism...

Rich Goodale

Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2007, 10:47:44 AM »
Kevin

The 8th at Dornoch is indeed a punchbowl, as is the 17th.  Both of them are very interesting in that you can play off the tee for either a dowhill or uphill second shot.  On both, an iron to the left corner gives you a view of the green, but a longer shot.  Down the middle you have a shorter but blind second.  On both, into the wind you need to play to that left corner to be able to reach the greeen in two, and in a heavy downwind, you can drive either green--if you are the Dalai Lama and have fully paid up personal liability insureance.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2007, 11:34:49 AM »
I can't remember the hole number but the Plantation course at Kapalua has a downhill punchbowl I believe on the front which is a really fun hole.  When I played it we were far enough back that it was a blind shot which made it really unique.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2007, 12:08:10 PM »
But Wayne, if the green is to "tie-in" and be in harmony
with its natural surrounds, shouldn't the green sit in some
amphitheatre location (not necessarily as extreme as some
of the examples appearing on this thread).

Also, what happened to those Flynn writings?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2007, 12:21:30 PM »
The 11th at Wakonda by Langford is like STLCC No. 5, a sunken green, but the back is not protected.   Cool hole.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2007, 12:31:01 PM »
Wayne I was setting this up as a punch bowl green by contouring and not setting. Also those which the shot to the green can be viewed by the player allowing for the thrill of seeing the ball feed with the contours.

Steve Sayers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2007, 12:48:31 PM »
Pat & Corey:

Yes the trees are awful but you should have seen it before -- white pines use to ring the entire punch bowl.

The club has been concentrating on those trees that have the greatest impact on play and agronomy.  It’s a slow process but moving in the right direction one conifer at a time.

Tony Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2007, 05:24:16 PM »
You need to play Outlaw at Desert Mountain in Scottsdale... I have a feeling that you would have a great time! ;)
Ski - U - Mah... University of Minnesota... "Seven beers followed by two Scotches and a thimble of marijuana and it's funny how sleep comes all on it's own.”

Tom Huckaby

Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2007, 05:26:59 PM »

Absolutely one of my favorite holes in the Sport, on a most unheralded course. I love that place. I've typed it here before, many  years ago in what Tom Huckaby calls the, "bad days" of GCA, but LuLu was the first place I ever met one of my favorite GCA people, one Tom Paul. Seems the good old days were good for something.


Tommy:  SLANDER!  I demand satisfaction.  My second will meet yours to determine specifics.   ;D

I NEVER said they were the "bad days" - I just did say they weren't quite as "good", nor are the current days as "bad", as many here like to think.

TH

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2007, 05:37:17 PM »
The 6th at Idlewild CC (originally built in the early 20th century pre 1905) has a very interesting green.  From the original tee it is a 185-215 yd par 3 slightly downhill to a combination green.  The left portion is a smallish plateau which slopes down to a punch bowl right portion.  Over the last 30 yrs committees have built a new tee which presents a less favorable angle of approach and maintenace practices have shrunk the green a bit.  Still the bones of a very interesting green where shots to the right portion can be seen feeding around the punchbowl.

wsmorrison

Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2007, 07:38:47 PM »
But Wayne, if the green is to "tie-in" and be in harmony
with its natural surrounds, shouldn't the green sit in some
amphitheatre location (not necessarily as extreme as some
of the examples appearing on this thread).

Also, what happened to those Flynn writings?

Sorry 'bout that.  Here's one of them from a letter Flynn wrote to JD Rockefeller III and Nelson Rockefeller both of whom were helping with the development of the new golf course at the family estate in Tarrytown, NY.

“…our method of building Golf Courses varies somewhat from the general practice in that we use considerably greater quantities of material in developing construction.  This is brought about by blending slopes naturally into surrounding surfaces, so as to present a pleasing effect to the eye, and not marring the landscape.  Naturally this sort of construction is more expensive than that obtained from stereotype ideas, but in the long run great savings may be effected in the maintenance expense by the elimination of costly hand work.”[/i]

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2007, 10:00:57 PM »
Quote from: Wayne Morrison l

[b
“…our method of building Golf Courses varies somewhat from the general practice in that we use considerably greater quantities of material in developing construction.  This is brought about by blending slopes naturally into surrounding surfaces, so as to present a pleasing effect to the eye, and not marring the landscape.  Naturally this sort of construction is more expensive than that obtained from stereotype ideas, but in the long run great savings may be effected in the maintenance expense by the elimination of costly hand work.”[/b]
Quote

And people bought that line??? No wonder Flynn built so much in Philly and not New York! ;D ;D

Kyle Harris

Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2007, 10:02:49 PM »
Why the need to constantly badger Wayne?

Bill,

I know for a fact that Flynn courses are much more cost effective than pretty well anything out there. He was good, real good.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #39 on: December 11, 2007, 10:10:41 PM »
Ah, just kidding. I am a MacRaynor fan!

I have limited experience playing Flynn courses but loved each one the first time I played them. But the quote is very interesting in that is suggests MORE engineering was done to better tie in the hole to the surrounds.

I think that raises an interingiest question: did Flynn take more care in the routing to  make the hole appear "more natural" or more time shaping after the hole was installed?


Patrick_Mucci

Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #40 on: December 11, 2007, 11:08:24 PM »
Wayne,

As you know the 16th green AND surrounds are both "punchbowl" in nature.

And, while errant shots are fed inwards, the blind and/or double blind nature of # 16 makes it a sporty hole, one worthy merit in addition to the blending the natural and constructed surrounds to form a unique, enjoyable and sporty hole.

# 6 green at TC has punchbowl qualities as do the immediate surrounds, as constructed as they might be.

As you know, the original Raynor blueprint didn't reflect any bunkers on that hole, which might lend credence to the theory that that green in combination with the length of the hole and the topography of the hole were all that was needed to make it a demanding and beautiful hole.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2007, 11:16:08 PM »

Sorry 'bout that.  Here's one of them from a letter Flynn wrote to JD Rockefeller III and Nelson Rockefeller both of whom were helping with the development of the new golf course at the family estate in Tarrytown, NY.

“…our method of building Golf Courses varies somewhat from the general practice in that we use considerably greater quantities of material in developing construction.  This is brought about by blending slopes naturally into surrounding surfaces, so as to present a pleasing effect to the eye, and not marring the landscape.  Naturally this sort of construction is more expensive than that obtained from stereotype ideas, but in the long run great savings may be effected in the maintenance expense by the elimination of costly hand work.”[/i]


Wayne,

Don't Flynn's own words in his letter dispel the notion that he was a "naturalist" ?

And that he was as much of a "constructionist" if not more so than other architects ?

It would appear that he's stating that he brings in even more material to mask his construction by tying in the constructed features with the natural features in the distance.

While this may mute abrubt lines and fool many golfers/observers, it would appear that this process could only succeed where funds were plentiful.

It's an interesting letter.
[/color]

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2007, 12:08:39 AM »
How about Painswick with its little punchbowls (not downhill though)?


10th: play from left.


5th looking back.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2007, 12:09:15 AM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Bob Jenkins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2007, 12:22:57 AM »
I have not played it for several years but could the 8th at Pasa not be considered a punchbowl?

wsmorrison

Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2007, 08:41:59 AM »
I think that raises an interingiest question: did Flynn take more care in the routing to  make the hole appear "more natural" or more time shaping after the hole was installed?

Bill, while I hesitate to generalize since Flynn was not dogmatic or as compartmentalized as some (read Raynor and Banks ;)).   It will come as no surprise to you and most that I consider Flynn one of the most brilliant routers of all time.  I know a host of other industry insiders that agree.  Pat Mucci might think that green to tee crossovers is a design flaw, I do not when the technique results in excellence such as at Lehigh and Merion.  I think it is safe to say that Flynn utilized as much of the natural features as possible but where he elected to create man-made features, he made the architecture look natural and not of his making.  This takes more fill and less ego.  It takes careful study to consider what was natural and what was Flynn and so much of his efforts go unnoticed.  He didn't care, he wanted to make the golf course appeal to our eye and, as he was an excellent player, and one of the longest hitters in golf, he had the understanding of a talented player to create championship designs but also a regard for all classes of players so his courses tended to be built with a means of accomodating all players.  As one of the outstanding green keepers in early American golf, he also had the good sense to design with future maintenance costs in mind.  He clearly believed that natural features would not only appeal to our aesthetic sensibilities better but also stand the test of time better than overtly man-made features.

Don't Flynn's own words in his letter dispel the notion that he was a "naturalist"?  And that he was as much of a "constructionist" if not more so than other architects ?

I completely disagree with Pat's characterization of Flynn as a constructionist.  That label applies much more so to Raynor and Banks, neither of whom knew much about golf or green keeping.  

Flynn is a naturalist in my opinion because he used nature as much as possible, but his goal was to create the most interesting golf, and championship golf when allowed.  To do this he would often add architectural features but took great care and sometimes expense to make them look natural.  Naturalism in golf is not simply using what nature provided, that to me is minimalism.  Naturalism includes using what nature provided and disguising man-made features (architecture) as looking natural.  Coore and Crenshaw were minimalists at Sand Hills.  But they, Doak, and other modern architects tend to be naturalists in many of their efforts.

Flynn called himself the nature faker.  He brought more material in for good reason even if Pat would somehow spin it to having a constructed look.  For the most part, it did not.  This makes determining his green space by eye more difficult (except his scale drawings make it simple) as his greens tend to tie into the surrounds in natural ways (in general as do his bunkers) while other architects such as Macdonald, Raynor, Banks and early Ross leave no doubt where the green ended and natural grade began.

While this may mute abrubt lines and fool many golfers/observers, it would appear that this process could only succeed where funds were plentiful.

That would seem so, but I think not Pat.  In the short term, building golf courses efficiently and with less fill to tie them in would be less expensive.  Flynn believed that spending more in the beginning would allow you to spend less over time in terms of maintenance cost that will be far more costly in the long run than initial construction expenditures.  So Flynn's approach would not only look better but be better for the club over time.  In many regards, like building in elasticity and recognizing the future effects of technology and better athletes on the length of courses, his long term approach enables his courses to stand the test of time better.  This is true in terms of maintenance cost and challenge.  His courses are less changed than most and his courses remain championship courses longer than most with the preplanned lengthening that is allowed.  Macdonald, Raynor and Banks either were not hired to provide these sorts of courses or they did not foresee the changes that would come.

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2007, 09:05:44 AM »
I think I remember a downhill par-three named "Punchbowl" at the Bald Peak Colony Club in Melvin Village, NH, but I am having trouble remembering the routing. Mike Sweeney, do you have any pictures of that one? Which hole was that?
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

nandoal

Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2007, 10:15:29 AM »
#2 @ Fox Chapel GC in Pittsburgh.  A Raynor design.  Classic downhill punchbowl.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2007, 10:16:23 AM by Allan_Hernandez »

Brendan Dolan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2007, 10:21:35 AM »
I don't know if this is what your looking for but the 4th green at Erin Hills is a punchbowl green.  You can really see balls feed off the back, but sometimes the ball disappears over the front edge only to reappear miles away from the front hole location.

Brendan

Tom Huckaby

Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #48 on: December 12, 2007, 10:45:23 AM »
I have not played it for several years but could the 8th at Pasa not be considered a punchbowl?

No.  There's a severe slope back to front, a severe slope left to right, and a lesser slope right to left.. with NO slope front to back.  You could perhaps call this a soup turreen, but not a punchbowl.

TH

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:downhill punchbowls
« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2007, 11:00:35 PM »
I think that the 5th at St. Louis is a a really cool puchbowl.  It certainly does not have Shinny aesthetics, but I thought it was fine to the eye.  There are plenty of stone walled burns over in Scotland, and some to them stand out as dramatically as this one.  The beauty of the punchbowl is the ability to use imagination to overcome a seemingly impossible up and down.  I missed my second shot to this hole short right to a front left pin, no chance to get within 25 feet going directly at the pin, and to recover I hit the ball almost to the back fringe in the middle and the ball nestled within 5ft.  These types of shots are the most fun recoveries.