Royal New Kent vs. Tobacco Road (Strantz Comparison)

[rjsimper]

Having just played Tobacco Road for the first time this past weekend, and having played Royal New Kent several years ago twice in a day, I'm struggling to pit these two Strantz designs against one another.  

I've only played one other Strantz, and it was his redesign of the MPCC Shore course, which was clearly done with a much different objective to TR and RNK.

On a general level, my conclusion was that at it's very best, RNK is the more unique and memorable of the two courses...but at its worst, it is far inferior to Tobacco Road.  RNK has some great and memorable holes when he's doing his Irish links imitation, but there are more than a handful, if I recall, of holes that are just your ho-hum Maryland/Virginia jobs.  

TR felt, to me, like the more consistently unique and "in-character" course throughout.

Anyone else out there played both of these and care to share your thoughts on comparisons between the two?  It goes without saying that the 18th at RNK is weighing heavily on my opinion of that course as a whole.

I'll dig up some photos of RNK to augment...if I can find them.

EDIT - here they are - apologies for I do not remember hole numbers throughout as this is RNK from probably 5 years ago

The 2nd hole at RNK...the "question mark" style par 5 that appears twice at Tobacco Road.

Third hole - Strantz was bold enough to slap the player with a blind par 3 right off the bat

And follows it up with a blind tee shot over an aiming rock on the 4th, which I believe was a par 4

The par 5 5th (I think)

A huge green on a par 3 - No idea what hole number it was

The same green from behind - something like 75 paces long

One of the few "duney" holes on the back - maybe 12 or so

The approach to the same hole - it's a short par 4 in the 350 neighborhood - another good hole with an appropriate amount of quirk

But then the boring holes begin...

Granted the land for holes 13-18 isn't the better land, but the holes, as you can see, get pretty ho-hum - even this, which is a good hole at 450+ yards with a diagonal hazard, doesn't really maintain the character he spent the first 13 holes establishing

And talk about closing with a whimper - it's been discussed ad nauseum, but the 18th at Tobacco Road is not overly special, in my opinion, but the tee shot is the lasting memory that ties the bow on the end of a unique round.  Below, as you can see, you feel like  you're playing a bad course in Palm Springs with every negative connotation that could possibly bring.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Ryan, I have played six of Strantz's courses.  I have played RNK a bunch but TR only once.  They are quite different.  RNK is big.  It has big fairways, big greens, big bunkers.  It doesn't have as many blind shots as TR.  I found RNK more difficult of the two.  A lot of his courses are "big."  True Blue is enormous.  But go across the street to Caledonia and it is very different and more traditional in size.   Of all his courses RNK is my favorite.  I played TR with Forest Fezzler, who was an associate of Strantz.  It was fun to hear him talk about why they did this and why they did that.

I am sad that he died before his time and that we won't be treated to anymore of his courses.  I would liked to have seen how his style would develop.

[Jerry Kluger]

Ryan:  I have played RNK a number of times but not TR.  It's probably been 5 years since I was at RNK and now because of your photos I have to go back.  Williamsburg has to be one of the great bargains in the golf world.

[Tom_Doak]

Tommy:

I have exactly the opposite reaction to Mike's courses than you do.  I much prefer the "smaller" courses he did, like Caledonia and Tobacco Road, where his creativity was essential to making the course interesting and where the short length compensates for some over-the-top featuring.

On the other pole, I found Royal New Kent and Stonehouse to be just silly and extreme ... not only because you're supposed to be hitting longer clubs into those greens, but because the greens themselves are so exaggerated in elevation that they get away from the scale of interesting recovery play.  If you miss a green on those two, you're nearly always down in a foxhole you can't see out of.  They are also both completely unwalkable.

[Dan_Callahan]

I'm a huge fan of RNK but I think Tobacco Road is the superior course. It could just be that TR was in better condition when I played it than was RNK, but I thought there was greater variety and fewer weaknesses at TR. I did think the downhill par 3 at RNK (not sure what hole . . . shallow green with creek short and bunkers and hill long) was pretty spectacular. I'd like to go back and play them both when they are in prime condition to make a more informed comparison.

I've heard lots of complaints about 17 and 18 at RNK (being out of character), but I actually liked both holes, especially the green site on 17. I didn't much care for 16 (I think it is) at RNK, with the house directly behind the green. In fact, that stretch of holes across the street (14, 15, 16?) gave the routing a kind of disjointed feel.

Anyway, just nitpicking. I love them both.

[Joe Bausch]

If you'd like to see more of RNK, I took many photos there this summer and they are here:

http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/%7Ebausch/images/Royal_New_Kent/

I would have liked RNK more but my bud and I made a reservation a week in advance for a Saturday afternoon, then we arrive to find we are following a greenskeeper revenge day.  Uggghhhh, as you can see from where the pin was located on the first green.

[rjsimper]

On the other pole, I found Royal New Kent and Stonehouse to be just silly and extreme ... not only because you're supposed to be hitting longer clubs into those greens, but because the greens themselves are so exaggerated in elevation that they get away from the scale of interesting recovery play.  If you miss a green on those two, you're nearly always down in a foxhole you can't see out of.  They are also both completely unwalkable.

Never played Stonehouse, but I didn't think RNK was TOO silly/extreme to enjoy - my issue with it is that if it's going to be extreme, which it certainly is, why build the 6 hole stretch to close so traditionally and abandon everything the first 12 holes established?

It's extreme, yes, but it's not Tot Hill Farm...which I played 2 holes on and walked around...and would immediately place it far behind RNK or TR.

[Steve Verde]

I've played them each once with RNK being played on New Year's Eve (not the nicest time of year for Virginia). I thoroughly enjoyed both courses. They are both extremely unique but I have to agree with Ryan. Every single hole at Tobacco Road is unique while there are some average or confusing holes. Tobacco Road also fits the setting better than RNK. RNK almost seems forced and there are houses on the back nine which detracts from the course. It also lacks consistency with the majority of the course being a mock Irish links, but several holes on the back 9 being played in the trees and then 17 and 18 just not fitting in at all. Tobacco Road is so isolated and every hole feels like it should be there. All in all I like Tobacco Road more but not by that much.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy:

I have exactly the opposite reaction to Mike's courses than you do.  I much prefer the "smaller" courses he did, like Caledonia and Tobacco Road, where his creativity was essential to making the course interesting and where the short length compensates for some over-the-top featuring.

On the other pole, I found Royal New Kent and Stonehouse to be just silly and extreme ... not only because you're supposed to be hitting longer clubs into those greens, but because the greens themselves are so exaggerated in elevation that they get away from the scale of interesting recovery play.  If you miss a green on those two, you're nearly always down in a foxhole you can't see out of.  They are also both completely unwalkable.

I thought Caledonia was exceptional.  What I like about RNK is its sillyness.  On number 11, if you hit it in the bunker short and right you're in the deepest bunker in the western world.  I didn't like Stonehouse very much.  I thought it worked too hard at building 18 signature holes.  

[Kalen Braley]

Its too bad the weather didn't cooperate while I was back in the area last weekend.  The course looks like a blast to play with quirk galore!!!

[paul cowley]

Forrest is my friend!

[cary lichtenstein]

I am a huge fan of Strantz, having played his entire body of work except Bulls Bay which I need to get to at some point.

My 2 favorites are Tobacco Road and Royal New Kent. Having played each only once, I would like to go back for multiple plays, as there is just too much going on to remember hole by hole.

I thought all the others were well worth playing, although I didn't care much for Stonehouse, but it was very wet that day and Tot Hill Farm was a blast, but kind of fell apart toward the end.

I don't think you can compare these without multiple plays on each, differnt wind conditions, and playing both good and bad on each. I know that if I have my A game and I hit 12/13 greens, it is different than if I hit 4 or 5 greens and experience all the nuisances of recovery shots on his courses.

Cary

[rjsimper]

I don't think you can compare these without multiple plays on each, differnt wind conditions, and playing both good and bad on each. I know that if I have my A game and I hit 12/13 greens, it is different than if I hit 4 or 5 greens and experience all the nuisances of recovery shots on his courses.

One thing that multiple plays will not change is consistency and character from 1-18.  Tobacco Road has it, Royal New Kent does not.

[Scott Weersing]

I wish there was another architect creating courses like Strantz did. He had an amazing imagination and created some amazing holes at RNK.

Too many courses look and play like all the other nearby courses. But RNK feels like a "best of course" with holes taken from other courses around the world and transplanted in Virginia. I like that RNK has uphill holes and blind shots into greens, especially no. 8.  

RNK has holes that play like no other. No. 1 is a downhill tee shot and then you look left and have to hit up to an elevated green. No. 2, the question mark, is very strange. I love no. 3 because Strantz but a hill in front of the green so all you can see is the back shelf of the green.

One criticism I have is that the areas around the greens do not give the player a very good chance to make a recovery for par. Another criticism is that I am unsure what style Strantz was trying for at RNK, but maybe it is his own style.

I am also surprised that the owner has not softened up the course to make it more "playable".

[David Schofield]

It's extreme, yes, but it's not Tot Hill Farm...which I played 2 holes on and walked around...and would immediately place it far behind RNK or TR.

I played Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm back-to-back this summer and I agree with your assessment.  While the par 3's were great, I was underwhelmed by the par 4's and 5's.  I particularly disliked 4 (routing & second shot), 8 (second shot), 9 (severely uphill blind approach next to a road), 16, 17, 18 (all three are in a field with very little definition).  Still, the par 3s were incredible and worth slogging through the rest of the round.