Wilmington North (Wilson)...

[mark chalfant]

Some friends have spoken highly of this Dick Wilson layout near the Winterthur Estate in Delaware. The holes near clubhouse seem nice, Ive yet to see the entire 6,400 yard  course. Has anyone played this mid 1960s course ? How does it compare with WCC South (its longer sibling)

thanks




p.s.  nice review by b. vostinak on www. redanman.com

[Tommy Williamsen]

I have only played the north course a couple of times.  It is not the course that the south is.  The south course is excellent.  It may be a little tree bound but the greens and surrounds are just terrific.  It seems to me that there is some work going on at the North Course.  I enjoyed the course but did not think it was anything special even if I did make an eagle.

[Mike_Trenham]

I think they hired Wilson when they realized Biderman was better than the course RTJ had built for them at the new location.  In the end Biderman is the best 18 in New Castle County and the the south course is less than great.  Doak 3 or 4.

Biderman is a strong 7 (an 8 if playing firm and fast).

[Mark_Fine]

Mark,
Wilimington North is a decent Wilson design but not really something you'd go out of your way to play.  Some excellent holes, some just ok.

Mike,
You must have played a different Bidermann than the one I know.  It might have at one point been a Wilson design, but it has been changed soooo much over the years, that you have to look closely to find it.  It has great potential if the time and patience were put in by someone to restore the Wilson features but until then it is a 5 or so at best.  

[wsmorrison]

I don't know what is original Bidermann Wilson or not.  I do know some of the more recent efforts that are not (17 and 18).  Despite reworkings, I think it is an excellent golf course, a solid Doak 7.  Yes, the 18th is an ordinary finish but I think 17 is solid.  There are some excellent holes out there, particularly the par 4s.  Beyond the architecture, the club is marvelous in its shabby and understated feel.  The Grilled George sandwich is terrific by the way.  While I cannot give direct evidence, the routing has a Flynn feel to it the way the contours and terrain are used.  

I love playing Bidermann and knowing the club it is easy to understand how it is overlooked (very private with very little play) but it shouldn't be overlooked because of its architecture.  I'll see if Craig has earlier aerials of Bidermann (it was probably built too late for most of his sources).  Mark, which are original Wilson holes and which (besides 17 and 18) are not?

[Cory Lewis]

Wilmington North is a good course, front nine is more interesting then the back nine.  Of the Wilson's I've played I would put it below Bidermann, NCR, Coldstream.

I played Bidermann for the first time a couple weeks ago.  The new greens are about a year old and still growing in.  They are what you would expect from new greens, they roll true and pure but are inconsistent in terms of firmness.  The super is doing one heck of a job though.  I think Bidermann gets high ratings from the fact that it has the most interesting terrain in the Wilmington area.  I found it hard to compare to a course like Dupont or Fieldstone because of the topography.  

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
I agree it is a fun and very private golf experience and the food is great (a 7 or so).  But architecture-wise, which is the basis of the Doak scale (at least I think it is), it is not much more than 5.  Maybe you should be a panelist    
Mark

[ChipOat]

The original Bidermann course was Henry duPont's private 9 hole affair (Wintherthur was his home which is why Bidermann is next door).

Did Flynn do the original layout?  Was the 2nd nine holes just added to the original in the late 1950's, was it "integrated" into 9 new holes or is it truly NLE?

You think Bidermann doesn't get much play now?  When I was a kid growing up nearby, the club had all of 20 members.  It made the old Links Golf Club on Long Island (NLE since the mid-1980's) seem like Cobbs Creek!  Well - not quite like Cobbs, but you get the point.  Just a little TE Paul hyperbole thrown in for fun.

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

I didn't know Tom was looking for Doak panelists.  I like his scale as it it is not really a ranking.  There is no differentiation out to 4 decimal places to determine which is the 17th or 18th best golf course in Wyoming.  Since there is only one true Doak scale, mine is only a meager attempt at best.  I doubt Tom would want me as I would loathe myself if I joined the ranker ranks    However, if he his asked to do something really important like an homage to Flynn, I'd get my hands dirty doing that.  However, I doubt Tom will want to become the homage Titan in the industry.  

So what is so different from the original design other than the fine 17th and the necessarily unspectacular 18th?  My guess is that there isn't much different in terms of the hole concepts.  Tom Paul may know best among us.  He's in the Menage a Trois  you know.

[TEPaul]

CHIP OAT!!!???

Where the hell have you been? It seems like you got lost for about the last two and a half years.

Welcome back, pal.

[TEPaul]

Chip:

When I hung around The Links, there was almost never any members playing the place. If they ever came over it was mostly for the great Sunday lunch. If you ever saw anyone on the golf course it was generally just some firemen and cops.

Interesting question about what the Biderman course was pre Dick Wilson and who may've done it.

I have no idea at all.

[Cory Lewis]

I think I remember hearing that the 9 hole course laid out for Mr. Dupont was Dev Emmett.  And the 18 hole course was a completely new course done by Wilson that used some bits and pieces of the 9 hole course but for the most part was a  new course.  But I could be wrong.

[TEPaul]

"It might have at one point been a Wilson design, but it has been changed soooo much over the years, that you have to look closely to find it."

Mark:

It has? Then who was it that changed it so much? The only real changes I'm aware of is what Gil Hanse did to the last few hole to make more room for a range.

On the other hand, I could be mistaken but I think the club has done some kind of project recently whether it's some kind of restoration or renovation or improvement or whatever but the feedback is it's good. Again, I could be wrong but I think I heard Macdonald and Company did the project.

For those who may've forgotten, Macdonald and Co is the company that reinvented the White Faces of Merion! Apparently they decided to go with a new style called "The Over-upholstered look"

[ChipOat]

Tom:

There weren't any firemen, cops or caddies on the Bidermann course (nobody could find it).  Perhaps they were at Cobbs, instead.  Told you The Links seemed like Cobbs!

Wayne and Tom:  Stand by for a new thread re: private courses in Philadelphia.

And Tom:  It's only been about 9 months or so - the new day job is really getting in the way of a good time.

[Mark_Fine]

Guys,
I'm not sure what work has been done of late but I do know that both Ron Forse and I were finalists for the project (Jim Nagle did the interview right before me).  I'm sure we were both promoting a return to a Dick Wilson style and strategy.  Neither of us got the project but I know we did quite a bit of research on the course beforehand.  I am hesitant to post photos/old aerials but much did change.  Maybe Jim will chime in with his thoughts.  Hopefully Chip did a nice job improving it.  I don't know if they stuck with Wilson and did their research or just did their own thing??
Mark

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

Since you didn't get the job and have no affiliation with the club, why do you feel you can mention significant changes from the original Wilson design but not mention what they are?  That doesn't make any sense at all.

If there is a possible downside in your professional future if you were to go into details, why mention it at all?  I'd be surprised if the club really cares.  They seem to be very pleased with the work done.  

Tom,

Was it MacDonald after Gil's work?  For some reason that doesn't ring a bell.

[mark chalfant]

When  i was there the head pro told me Bidermann was one of Wilsons very last designs. I got the impression that some of his senior men were on site a lot. I  believe that  our  friend Adam Messix may know  some  of the details, past    and present. Ironically the pros surname was Wilson.



Chip    nice to see you back here  !

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
Maybe Jim will be willing to post his thoughts on this.  He must have done some research ahead of time as well.  Basically, it only took a few holes to see that the course had changed quite a bit over the years.  The bunkering style, fairway lines, angles of play, green sizes, portions of the routing/new holes, trees, the list goes on and on.  

Here is a 1965 aerial of the property followed by one from 2002.  Even without seeing the course and looking at old photos, you can see some of the change in the aerials.

1965 Aerial



2002 Aerial



Mark

[Art Roselle]

I agree with most of the comments about Wilmington North.  It is a solid, fun course, but not great.  The South takes up the center of the property and so the North is routed around the edge, which leaves it with some difficult spots.  That said, they have made some improvements through the years.  The old routing had the tee for the par 3 7th right next to the tee of the 6th, so you had to play 6 and then walk all the way back to the tee to play the next.  The new 7th is better, but the routing still feels a little forced (the old 7th is now a practice green).  The edge of the property does include some good land and the view from the 11th green is the prettiest on the property.

I always enjoy playing the North, but there are too many weak holes to make it a really good course.  For example, the lake on the par 5 18th is too large and in a bad spot on the hole.  After a decent drive, the average player has to either carry it 220 yards and leave himself a 50 yard pitch or lay up with a wedge and have 150+ yards in.

Interestingly, the course is considered "much" easier than the South by most people, but when they played the mid-am there a few years ago, the scoring was pretty similar (I think the the North was a little lower, but not as much as most people expected).

The South has been closed for a year for a major renovation.  Does anyone know what the changes are and whether they make sense?

Thanks
Art