Steve Shaffer:
As an FYI -- I have mentioned Red Sky Ranch many times here on GCA as a standout design from the ones I have played that bear his name. The price to play there isn't cheap and they do rotate the public access with the companion TF design that's also there and which is quite mundane. Norman did indeed excell at Red Sky Ranch -- arguably one of the 2-3 best public courses I have played in all of Colorado.
Pat Craig:
I hear what you say. But let's place that one time encounter you had w Norman in some sort of context. We are all human beings and I'm not here to say his reaction was unacceptable. However, there are plenty of people I have witnessed on the PGA Tour who have acted in any number of ways -- good, bad and somewhere in between.
I understand clearly that first impressions can often mean lasting ones. So be it.
However, the purpose of this site is to assess the man's designs. I'm sure people bumped into Tillinghast or Ross at times and the same things were uttered from their mouths on occasion. That's the price for being human. Just remember, I'm not sanctioning such outbursts.
You've articulated you have only played one Norman course and it stunk. I've kept what you said in mind -- try to realize and keep in mind what others -- myself included -- have said given the larger design portfolio of courses others have played.
Tom Doak:
When you categorize Norman's work it would be especially helpful for everyone -- yourself included -- to list those courses you have specifically played. Not from what others have said -- but from your own personal observations.
I never said Norman hits home runs with each of his designs. Guess what -- no one does as in all architects.
Norman did outstanding work at Red Sky Ranch in Wolcott, CO. I think it's a superb mountain course -- plenty of width to handle a wide extreme of players and enough elasticity in its design to give challenge to all skill levels. I have the same feeling sfor Doonbeg when I played there. Very enjoyable and quite fun to play -- IMHO, worthy of any person to play when visiting that part of Ireland.
I've also played other courses where the level of detail and design sophistication is much less. However, from the limited number of courses I have played that bear his name I have found them to be consistently higher than a number of other tour players who have jumped into the design arena.
Joel Stewart:
Thanks for the story on The Medalist -- try to remember what Pete Dye has done with Crooked Strick too! Likely with a bit of time I could list other examples of similar situations.
I like Doonbeg immensely -- if improvements were made then I don't see the issue. If in fact -- the reverse happened then that's something that needs to be examined -- in real detail.
Keep in mind this -- with each project the onus becomes more and more for Norman to demonstrate an ability to evolve his work and do show that he is learning from past situations. I'm curious to see future works -- like Cornerstone in CO sometime in '08 and see if that evolution is happening or not. We shall see.
jeffwarne:
You said, "How do you know I didn't choose option C?"
Simple solution. Why not just state your answer among the choices you provided instead of the quiz show process you followed?
You statements that followed in your longish retort was more straightforward and clearer. You said, "I was merely trying to say it would be unfair to judge a man who devotes a smaller percentage of his time to architecture than say Rees Jones, Tom Fazio ,or Tom Doak,Bill Coore, Kelly Blake Moran ,Gil Hanse, Kelly Blake Moran and a host of other full time architects." I agree with that and I said that Norman when compared to other "tour" designers has done quite well for the limited number of designs that I have personally played. I am also aware of the disasters that others have mentioned and a few of the lesser products that I have personally played.
Jeff, you may have missed what I always say. No designer, even the preferred ones on this site -- hit home runs with each design. Some even do bomb jobs -- while I have not played Doral White I take your opinion on the course very seriously.
Ditto on the other experiences you mentioned.
Now try to take seriously the comments from others -- myself included. I really like a number of his other courses -- Red Sky Ranch, Doonbeg and TPC Sugarloaf come quickly to mind. I also like Wente Vineyards in CA but not at the same level as the first three.
Jeff, enough of the "world's not fair" sermon. Breaks and connections are a part of life. No doubt about that. I enjoy the success stories of plenty of people who don't have a high profile and have mentioned many times those names here and elsewhere. Norman has an ego the size of the parade balloons that you see on Thanksgiving Day in the NYC parade. No dount on that front. Just to clue you in -- many architects also have egos -- some of them are quite large too.
The name "Norman" is a branding concept to capture attention of people through a wide variety of products. Designing courses is part of that effort. I never said what the guy designs is all dog food -- some have. I've tried to place the debate in some sort of context and have cited enough personal examples to show otherwise.
You are free to play what you want and see him in whatever light you care to show. I'm just as free to comment when I believe the written record needs to reflect the flip side when merited. Norman is a smart businessman and likely realizes that his continuation in the field will only increase if he is sensitive to the many needs he must accomodate.
I consider his development to be a mix bag but I have seen clear instances where he has put forward a solid effort.