A question/concern re: Old MacDonald at Bandon Resort (vs. PD)

[ed_getka]

Tom D,
   Thanks for providing us with the order of holes, I can't wait for opening day. The ten round breakdown is just going to get tougher and tougher. What a great golf destination.

[Tom_Doak]

Brian A:  Hopefully the Eden at Old Macdonald will remind people most of all of the 11th hole at St. Andrews ... the original and best.

mdugger:  There was never much doubt that we weren't going to tear down the dunes along the coast.  I don't know why I might have implied otherwise, other than to keep people wondering what would happen.  So, there will be no true "oceanfront" holes at Old Macdonald.  The tee of the 15th hole will be on the dune with a great view of the ocean to the north / northwest ... if the 15th is the Biarritz, then the green site will also be on the north slope with a good view out Whiskey Run to the ocean (and of something that looks like a golf course to the north).

[Dan Kelly]

Is 13 a non-template hole?

What's a "Channel" hole?

[Marty Bonnar]

There was never much doubt that we weren't going to tear down the dunes along the coast.

Tom,
should we assume some levity here, or are environmental considerations in the area not quite so stringent as here in the uncivilised north?
Tearing down dunes? Please explain further...

MB.

[JMorgan]

Tom, is someone writing a book chronicling the creation of the course?

[Tom_Doak]

JMorgan (Dr. J):

I don't know if there is any plan for a book at this time, but there ARE three published authors on the design committee.  Mr. Urbina will probably want to write a book on the subject, but he's going to need a good editor.  

FBD:

I meant that there was no way we were going to tear down those dunes, although if anyone was ever in a position to get permission to do so, it would be Mr. Keiser in Bandon right now.

Dan K:

I don't know what #13 is going to be yet.  It was under gorse the last time we were there, but I guess there was a fire or something.  It's an uphill approach to a small natural punchbowl set in a steep ridge ... I guess we could make it something like the 10th at Yale if we wanted to.

[Joe Hancock]

It was under gorse the last time we were there, but I guess there was a fire or something.

Oh my, that's terrible luck! I hope the project moves forward successfully after such a tragedy....

[Marty Bonnar]

Tom,
sorry, the double negative (never/weren't) in written form appeared to say something which you clearly didn't intend!!! Stoopid internet interpretations.
I should have known better. Tom Doak quite clearly has scruples. That is why I was - 'surprised'

best,
MB.

[Kalen Braley]

TomD,

Thanks for the explanation as to why the most holes run mostly into the wind or with it...that makes perfect sense to me.  And the routing for OldMac looks pretty cool, once its all figured out with the gorse and being removed.

How involved is Mike K on this course given the fact you have a pretty solid track record with PD and other sandy soil site courses you have done?

[JMorgan]

JMorgan (Dr. J):

I don't know if there is any plan for a book at this time, but there ARE three published authors on the design committee.  Mr. Urbina will probably want to write a book on the subject, but he's going to need a good editor.  

Sign me up.  I had suspected Jim was the budding Melville of golf.

[JC Urbina]

Tom
How did you know ?

[Peter Pallotta]

Tom, JC -

might that Biarritz end up being one of those holes that the average golfer is simply not disposed to like? Is it destined to be one of the more controversial holes on the course?

I ask because this -- "...even then, it's going to be playing right into a big dune behind it..." -- doesn't sound like making it the 16th hole is your first or preferred choice, even without considering the earth-moving it would require or the natural green setting that making it the 15th would provide for.

Instead, it sounds like you'd much prefer to make the 15th the Biarritz, but that you know it will be a difficult hole and so need the Time (sorry, couldn't resist) to try to decide whether it can and would 'fit', ie. if it comes at the right time in the round/routing, and if it fits the overall expectations of the likely clientele etc.

But am I reading you/that snippet of a quote wrong, or assuming too much/missing something?

Thanks
Peter

[Bill Brightly]

Dan

You mean to tell us that you do NOT have a copy of The Evangilist of Golf by George Bahto??? Quick, add it to your Christmas list!


TD,

Any decision on the Road behind the green? Macadam or sand?

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:  I've known you need a good editor for some time now ...

Kalen:  I suspect Mike Keiser will be out there more than I am on this job.  He's officially handed over Recycled Paper Greetings (which he sold a year ago) and now has more time than ever on his hands.  I know he trusts us, but he enjoys the process and likes to  watch and comment.

Bill:  We won't make a decision on the road until the end of February or so when the green is shaped ... until then it's an open discussion.  No way it will be macadam, that would look strange considering there are no paved surfaces on any of the courses.  The question is whether it will be a bunker, or a sandy two-track road like Macdonald would have seen at St. Andrews circa 1890.

Peter:  You're right, all other things being equal, I'd rather put the green where a Biarritz green fits naturally.  The prevailing wind is a factor in favor of the other solution.  But the real question is how the Alps hole would be built in either scenario, and that's going to have a lot to do with which Biarritz we build.  Generally speaking, if you have to do some earthmoving to make a hole work, it's easier to do it on a par-3 than a par-4.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Tom or Jim

Has the yardage of the course been decided as yet?  I'm very curious if this will be a "sporty" resort length course under 7000 yards or will it have the capability to play long enough so the top AMs or pros can really see what Macdonald intended for strategies? I think it would be cool to see Alps and Road approaches with longer clubs. Perhaps one seasonal wind will do this on many holes but I'm curious as to the intent in the design or Mr Keiser's interests. I could see a Shell's WOnderful world of golf playing much like to old one with Fred Couples and Greg Norman at Skibo Castle.  I was in Scotland nearby at Dornoch when they played that match and the wind was pretty severe.  It would make good television.

Thanks

[Dan Kelly]

Dan

You mean to tell us that you do NOT have a copy of The Evangilist of Golf by George Bahto??? Quick, add it to your Christmas list!


TD,

Any decision on the Road behind the green? Macadam or sand?

Actually, I do have it. It's one of my few gca books. I don't remember the Channel hole.

Better go find it ...

[Tom_Doak]

Dan:  The Channel hole was the 4th at Lido, based on the 16th at Littlestone -- an optional-fairway hole.

Dr. Childs:  We haven't decided upon the yardage.  Unlike Pacific Dunes, there are less dune features in the landscape here, so we can add back tees as much as we want.  But we are trying to include several "template" holes which are shorter par-4's, and I'm not keen on taking the Cape hole to 440 yards, especially when it might play into the wind some of the time.  This is probably the toughest decision we have to make, because the prevailing winds make so much difference.  For instance:  what length should the Redan be if it's downwind most of the time, but into the wind some of the time?

Those old 7200-yard tees at Bandon Dunes get almost zero play, because 7200 yards plus wind is impossible for most people and it slows down play; in fact, they just don't put the markers back there anymore.  I'm convinced that one of the reasons for the popularity of Pacific Dunes is that the good players get to play it at 6700 yards, instead of feeling obliged their asses back to 7000 "because it's there".

[George Pazin]

Dan

You mean to tell us that you do NOT have a copy of The Evangilist of Golf by George Bahto??? Quick, add it to your Christmas list!


TD,

Any decision on the Road behind the green? Macadam or sand?

Actually, I do have it. It's one of my few gca books. I don't remember the Channel hole.

Better go find it ...

From George Bahto's Feature Interview on here (one of my favorites):

Charles Blair Macdonald referred to the Channel hole (4th at Lido) as the best two-shotter he ever designed. The landfill at Lido encompassed filling in a morass up to 20 feet or more in some areas. A lagoon was built with water gates adjoining Reynolds Channel to control water level, tides etc.

The premise of the hole: A short par-5 of just about 505-yards with an optional fairway. The main fairway was a 'C' shaped affair, taking the long route straddling a lagoon while negotiating two carries over hazards. However, for the bold there was more direct route to a raised island fairway (30-yards by 100-yards long) surrounded by sea bents and eel grass - in effect taking the short cut. Find the fairway and a long-iron or brassie approach to the green was well within the grasp. Miss, and the recovery was all but impossible. Even the conservative route had its trials, the third shot was tricky in the wind, and carried a cross bunker.

I'm not 100% certain the description refers to the Channel Hole, but I think it does.

[Matthew Hunt]

Those old 7200-yard tees at Bandon Dunes get almost zero play, because 7200 yards plus wind is impossible for most people and it slows down play; in fact, they just don't put the markers back there anymore.  I'm convinced that one of the reasons for the popularity of Pacific Dunes is that the good players get to play it at 6700 yards, instead of feeling obliged their asses back to 7000 "because it's there".

Is Pacific or any other Bandon course suitable for a Tour event or even a USPGA? Or is there not the info-structure?

Ps. Sent you the message via IM because my e-mail wasn't working. It is now.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Dr. Childs:  We haven't decided upon the yardage.  Unlike Pacific Dunes, there are less dune features in the landscape here, so we can add back tees as much as we want.  But we are trying to include several "template" holes which are shorter par-4's, and I'm not keen on taking the Cape hole to 440 yards, especially when it might play into the wind some of the time.  This is probably the toughest decision we have to make, because the prevailing winds make so much difference.  For instance:  what length should the Redan be if it's downwind most of the time, but into the wind some of the time?

Those old 7200-yard tees at Bandon Dunes get almost zero play, because 7200 yards plus wind is impossible for most people and it slows down play; in fact, they just don't put the markers back there anymore.  I'm convinced that one of the reasons for the popularity of Pacific Dunes is that the good players get to play it at 6700 yards, instead of feeling obliged their asses back to 7000 "because it's there".

Tom - Thanks for the reply and I can totally understand every aspect of your response.  Perhaps its just being a selfish Macdonald/Raynor fan and reading Macdonald and his design intent that I would wish for a chance to see a really top notch player go after an Alps, long, road or prize dogleg with the clubs intended.  The superintnedent can always choose tees for a day that are dependent on the winds and weather.  Maybe as a designer you could build in a set of "winter wind" and "summer wind" tees as a method to guide the play during the year?

[Geoffrey Childs]

To answer the question -- it's not a concern for me, whether it is for others or not -- there will be a bit more crosswind golf at Old Macdonald, but still a minority.

Personally, I dislike having many holes playing crosswind in a place where there is SO MUCH wind.  A 30-mph crosswind is beyond the average golfer's ability to cope with, and you have to dumb down such holes in order to make them playable.  So I'm not going to do it often at Old Macdonald, either.  I know others have a "formula" that insists holes play in all compass directions ... but they're wrong in Bandon conditions.

Here is a scorecard with compass direction:

1 - Double Plateau - plays N
2 - Eden - NE
3 - Sahara - SW / S
4 - Hog's Back - S
5 - Short - W to SW
6 - Long - NNE
7 - Knoll (we think) - N
8 - Cape - S
9 - Bottle - S
10 - Dogleg - NW then NE
11 - Redan - SSW
12 - Leven - N
13 - no name yet - E
14 - Road - W
15 - Alps or Biarritz - E
16 - Biarritz or Alps - N or E
17 - Channel - S
18 - Punchbowl - SE then SW

We're waiting to see #15 and #16 with the gorse gone before making the call on which way to orient those two.

The only holes I felt really strongly about which way they should play were the Redan [downwind, because the Redan at Pacific Dunes is into the wind] and the Eden [quartering into the wind].

I'd love to see this discussion continue in intervals and until the whole golf course is built.  I think it is an opportunity to be one of the most educational in GCA history.  Many of us have an interest in Macdonald in particular and all of us I presume (except maybe all the 100% experimentalists who just want to play) have an interest in the design process and what goes into it.

I hope that Tom and his collaborators continue to spoon feed us with data and answer our questions.  For me anyway it will enhance my eventual visit.

[Brad Klein]

Prof. Childs, sometime this summer after our June visit there to Old Macdonald, we got a detailed preliminary routing on a topo map with 5' contour intervals and a scale of 1"= 200' (one day it might be available on eBay).

First point: don't anyone think this is being freewheeled in the field.

With map in hand, I pulled out my trusty scaled engineers ruler and drew out the vectors, turn points and total yardage for each hole and compiled it, then emailed it to the group. It wasn't long before I got a note back from Doak suggesting this wasn't the best way to proceed, and that they'd prefer to design in terms of how the holes set up and played under diverse wind conditions and topography rather than by virtue of distance. Since I always delete old emails, I never did keep that chart I made.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Brad

In "the old days" I recall seeing pictures of players hitting shots in the dirt on cleared corridors proposed for fairways.  Will someone be out there in the winter and summer winds to hit shots and test the "shot values" from the proposed tees and landing areas?

How do you "design in terms of how the holes set up and played under diverse wind conditions and topography" in this extreme situation of seasonal wind patterns?

[Brad Klein]

I'm sure that'll be done -- Karl Olson, being the best golfer in the lot by far, can certainly do some meaningful testing. And my sense is that what we'll be testing are a whole lot of charactertistics about the ball lands, reacts, rolls, etc., not just how far certain carries are.

As an example, we "tested" the wind back in June as follows, at Doak's suggestion. We all played together, and on the par-4 4th at Pacific Dunes, playing straight down a very brisk wind, I hit driver/8-iron to the back of the green, about 460 yards. Two holes later, at the 315-yard (or so) 6th hole, straight into the same pretty stiff wind, wind, I hit a driver and a full 8-iron and just got onto the front third of the green. The differences are amazing when you pay attention to them.

Of course that was in peak summer season. Next time there we'll be testing and tromping around in middle of winter.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Interesting.  Both the 4th and 6th at Pac Dunes are open in the front and allow different plays in varying winds.

What will you guys do for tees at the short or alps where bunkering requires aerial approach shots? I can't recall such potential variations in shot values in all the rounds I've played the 5th and 12th at Yale in particular and the several shots I've had at the 3rd and 6th at NGLA.  I can see a real dilemma.