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Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #50 on: December 10, 2007, 01:39:54 PM »
"Why does it have to be a situation of "higher" use for the land.  Can't the land just be land?  Must everything be on the table for development?"  Sean A.
---------------------------------------------------------
Sean,

Your desire for open, undeveloped land is as old as man is himself.   In fact, it plays not a small part in why we all love golf courses so much.

It is perfectly okay for land to remain undeveloped.  Well over 90% of land in the U.S. is, and no doubt a similar figure in Scotland.

Economic forces and government regulation actually determine what the "highest and best use" of a piece of land is.  There are many, many examples of private land owners who willingly forgo developing their property for a variety of reasons.

This one in Aberdeenshire is not one.  If Trump's application was unreasonably denied, I suspect that under the Scottish legal process, he has some recourse.  Petitioning higher levels of authority seems reasonable to me, particularly given that one of the main planks of the opposition is that part of the site contains land of important sensitive, scientific value (I suspect that this is not a local judgement or designation).

If the site was in my backyard and it was so important communally that it remain undeveloped, my position would be very simple: the community should enter into negotiations with the owner(s) and acquire the property for its enjoyment at a fair price.  In effect, this would be arriving at a highest and best use from a different perspective.  
« Last Edit: December 10, 2007, 01:41:42 PM by Lou_Duran »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #51 on: December 10, 2007, 04:07:29 PM »
"Why does it have to be a situation of "higher" use for the land.  Can't the land just be land?  Must everything be on the table for development?"  Sean A.
---------------------------------------------------------
Sean,

Your desire for open, undeveloped land is as old as man is himself.   In fact, it plays not a small part in why we all love golf courses so much.

It is perfectly okay for land to remain undeveloped.  Well over 90% of land in the U.S. is, and no doubt a similar figure in Scotland.

Economic forces and government regulation actually determine what the "highest and best use" of a piece of land is.  There are many, many examples of private land owners who willingly forgo developing their property for a variety of reasons.

This one in Aberdeenshire is not one.  If Trump's application was unreasonably denied, I suspect that under the Scottish legal process, he has some recourse.  Petitioning higher levels of authority seems reasonable to me, particularly given that one of the main planks of the opposition is that part of the site contains land of important sensitive, scientific value (I suspect that this is not a local judgement or designation).

If the site was in my backyard and it was so important communally that it remain undeveloped, my position would be very simple: the community should enter into negotiations with the owner(s) and acquire the property for its enjoyment at a fair price.  In effect, this would be arriving at a highest and best use from a different perspective.  

Trump didn't petition higher levels of government.  Higher levels of government called in the application.  This behaviour is highly unusual and clearly undermines democratic procedure.  The usual route is to go back to the drawing board and find ways to mitigate the objections.  OR, take the matter to appeal.  It is only Trump's personal timetable (like nobody else has a timetable when they put in a planning application) which stands between Trump and following normal & a very routine democratic procedure.

You seem to suggest that protected areas should be part of a government portfolio.  That all sounds well and good, but most governments do not have the money to purchase all the land that has scientific, historical, geological, biological (I think you get the picture)... Does this mean that any land not owned by the government has a lesser value from a protectionist point of view?  The fact is, in the UK there are restrictions, regulations & conditions placed on land development no matter who owns the land.  You may disagree with these protectionist schemes, but this isn't the wild west and laws have been developed for reasons.  

There is no such thing as a certain magic percentage of land that should be protected.  Because, as you can see, the government can change its mind about protected land and decide that it should be developed regardless that several environmental/heritage/wildlife agencies disagree. I don't know much about ecosystems, but the area was designated a Site of Special Scientific Interest for a reason.  Apparently (I say apparently because I don't know anything about these matters), the Foveran Links are a part of a inter-coastal system.  Which in this day and age could prove to be a very valuable barrier against land erosion.  

Even though I am personally against this application, I am more  concerned with the procedure than the outcome.  I don't like to see government circumvent the democratic process - regardless of how large the project is.  If the application is approved, there will forever be doubts as to what happened behind the scenes and with which ministers.  In other words, the government is removing transparency from the procedure - a bad idea.  Seeing as how many people don't trust government decisions as it is, I would think transparency to be a key aspect of any decision.    

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Mike Sweeney

Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #52 on: December 11, 2007, 05:35:41 AM »
FatBaldyDrummer,

Of course there is the OTHER side to think about based on local NYC events:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/08/nyregion/08trump.html


__________________________________________
In turn, Mr. Trump has repeatedly proclaimed Mr. Levinson a self-promoting “loser.”

There is also the clash of the notoriously glittery Trump aesthetic with the public mission and traditional Art Deco style of the park’s two bathhouses and landmark water tower. Mr. Trump agreed to use limestone for the restaurant, but his choice of a polished variety, critics say, does not conform to the general rough-hewn look of other park buildings. “It has a more luxurious look, a softer finish,” Mr. Trump said. “I want it to be gorgeous and they don’t want it to be gorgeous.”

Then there is the clash over the Trump name, which the developer envisioned writ large on the 28-foot-tall building. In one rendering, the name seemed to glisten in letters that were four feet tall. But state officials said the size violated the beach’s longstanding sign limitations and moved to reduce them to less than two feet in height, which enraged Mr. Trump.


Mark_F

Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #53 on: December 11, 2007, 06:02:45 AM »
What drew my eye to this thread was one poster's dismissive characterizations of the jobs that would be created.

Presumably that dismissive poster was me.

I am guessing you have never worked in the hospitality or retail industries.  A part time stint during college doesn't count. They generally produce jobs people do because they have little choice, not because they want to be treated like serfs for their entire working life.

We in the West have stupidly sat by and watch the right wing gladhanders soothingly convince us that we are all better off if goods were manufactured elsewhere, and that the knowledge economy is going to provide us with a future we can only dream of.

Except the standard of education has never been lower, and Governments seem determined to make Tertiary education an expensive pre-employment condition as opposed to centres of learning and thinking.

People have a myriad number of attributes and dreams.  Some desire only to work in low-skilled jobs, others are fortunately blessed to be gifted surgeons, still others will be able to build and repair things with their hands.

Turning economies into either/or creates more social problems, more division, and results in more depressed areas.

Who's concerned anyways or even asking about what happens to Aberdeenshire when the North Sea fields become unproductive?  Have the locals ever heard of Detroit?  Buffalo?

I am sure there are a lot less sub machine guns and Napalm available in the corner stores of Aberdeen that will render the area unsafe and unattractive to live in, than could be bought easily in Detroit.

The American car industry failed because those in charge were a bunch of clueless clots who failed to notice changing market demands, and thought the customer should accept second-rate crap anyway.

I am unsure what happened in Buffalo.  Why did they stop producing Mozzarella?

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #54 on: December 11, 2007, 02:36:53 PM »
Mark F,

Based on your post today, you are very likely the poster who I was referring to.  However, I did not characterize you as a "dismissive poster", only that the poster was dismissive of the service jobs likely created by the enterprise in question.  This is not a small difference.

By the way, are you associating me with the "right wing gladhanders" trying to lead the stupefied Western masses to their perdition?  Just asking in case I need to go and condition my leather-like not-so-thin skin.

To clarify the record, I have worked in the retail and the hospitality industries.  During undergraduate school, I was a bartender a couple of nights a week and a starter at the university golf course.  In my first year of graduate school, I helped start a jeans store on the main drag at the university, working half-time during the term, and full-time during vacations.  Lastly, I was an asset manager for a few years responsible for several hotels and a couple golf courses.

Many of the service jobs you dismiss are not meant to be careers.  Some are entry level jobs that people can use to develop work skills, a reputation for results and honesty, and a resume, then, perhaps as a springboard for promotion or even entrepreneurship.  For those who don't or can't obtain more attractive positions, do you propose they remain unemployed?

I don't know the "standard education" in your part of the world.  In the U.S., despite huge real increases in per-student expenditures, performance appears unabated in its secular (long-term) downward trend.  Not coincidentally, here in the U.S., education is a government monopoly.  Do you really want to argue that more government regulation of the economy is the cure to the world's ills?

By the way, I got through the university on my own with very little debt in part because of the income from those service jobs.  I saw them for what they were- an opportunity to make some money- and never, never felt like a serf.  Of course, growing-up with meager resources, I didn't feel poor, thought about class divisions, or envied and hated "the Rich".

As to economics, those who seek to minimize it and establish barriers to its natural force do so at socieity's detriment.  Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao et. al. tried and history has clearly recorded the results.  Ditto for Castro's Cuba, and the still evolving situation in Venezuela with Chavez.  Utopians can try all sorts of measures to change human nature.  The results are uniformally disastrous for humanity.      

For those with open, inquiring minds, I recommend Bryan Caplan's recent book  "The Myth of the Rational Voter: Why Democracies Choose Bad Policies".  It is not an easy read, but it references numerous studies, articles, and books, and sheds very interesting insights worthy of serious consideration.

Three of the four widely-held harmful and incorrect biases addressed by Professor Caplan are particularly relevant to the Trump discussion (anti-foreigner, anti-market, make work).  The fourth, toward pessimism (the future won't be as good as the present or past) also applies to a number of the posts appearing on this site relative to golf and its architecture.

As to Detroit and Buffalo, both have lost huge populations as important industries have left for various reasons.  Again, it is not a coincidence that both areas have been for a very long time highly regulated and very unfriendly toward business and enterprise.

Love to hate corporations and businesspeople like Trump?  Please consider that without them and the jobs they create, most of us are left to our devices.  Personally, I vote for wealth creation and the standards of living a vast majority of us here enjoy.                

Mark_F

Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #55 on: December 11, 2007, 03:11:45 PM »
Based on your post today, you are very likely the poster who I was referring to.  However, I did not characterize you as a "dismissive poster", only that the poster was dismissive of the service jobs likely created by the enterprise in question.  This is not a small difference.

Quite right.  My mistake. I apologise.

By the way, are you associating me with the "right wing gladhanders" trying to lead the stupefied Western masses to their perdition?

No, not at all.

I don't know the "standard education" in your part of the world.  In the U.S., despite huge real increases in per-student expenditures, performance appears unabated in its secular (long-term) downward trend.  Not coincidentally, here in the U.S., education is a government monopoly.  Do you really want to argue that more government regulation of the economy is the cure to the world's ills?

I sure do.  In Australia, we have stupidly adopted a 'user pays' mentality, especially in regards to tertiary education, and the standards just keep slipping.

And all those schools churning out people who could spell, read and write thirty plus years ago were run by the Government, not private business.

As to economics, those who seek to minimize it and establish barriers to its natural force do so at socieity's detriment.  Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao et. al. tried and history has clearly recorded the results.

I don't know about that.  Japan did pretty well after 1945.  And isn't the USA the world's most protected economy?  

All the major Western economies had much lower interest rates, inflation and levels of unemployment, and stronger growth, in the thirty years following WW2, when unions, and tariffs and other trade 'barriers' were common.  Since then, under the Friedman doctrine, there has been a recession/downturn every 7-8 years in most Western economies, foreign debt has spiralled out of control, and Governments have constantly fiddled with the way inflation is calculated in order to have it appear low.  And unemployment statistics these days are a joke.

Three of the four widely-held harmful and incorrect biases addressed by Professor Caplan are particularly relevant to the Trump discussion (anti-foreigner)

People don't like foreigners because they generally only have their own self interest - usually the bottom line - to think of, and not the community they intend to be part of.  And then they scarper when the going gets tough - re the Japanese in Australia in the 1980s-1990s.

anti-market.

Markets need some form of control. The US health system proves that.  And it's strange how all those cheaply made Nike and Reebok products end up costing a fortune back in our stores.

No doubt you will claim it is because they can charge what the market will bear, and ignore the fact that retailers must sell them at a particular price and aren't allowed to undercut each other. Ahh, the glory of a truly free market.

Love to hate corporations and businesspeople like Trump?    

People hate corporations and business people like Trump because they know when they are being sold a shit sandwich and not a Kobe beefburger with aged cheddar.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #56 on: December 11, 2007, 09:22:27 PM »
Mark,

A lot to respond to.  I'll try to do if off-line later and let this one go its happy way.

Michael Christensen

Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #57 on: December 11, 2007, 09:50:32 PM »
Not to get off subject, but the main reason the US car industry is in the sh*tter is due to the fact pension/healthcare costs have come due.  Ford and GM are not in the auto business, they are in the healthcare and pension business.  Once they convince the Feds to take these obligations off their hands, then they will be in the auto business again.

As far as the US healthcare system needing control...there are controls and we have the BEST system in the world.  No government program is needed....why would you want an organization to run another program into the ground ala social security and medicare!

I've read all these Trump/Aberdeen threads...it all comes down to one thing: dislike for Trump's persona.  If it was the perfect plan, people would be against it due to his involvement.

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #58 on: December 12, 2007, 01:38:29 AM »
As far as the US healthcare system needing control...there are controls and we have the BEST system in the world.  

You're joking aren't you?

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #59 on: December 12, 2007, 02:51:09 AM »
David Tepper,

maybe you know more but as far as I am aware I believe Mark P did take a look at the same area a round Aberdeen that Trump is wanting to use. I also believe that, unlike Trump, he decided not to try building there due to the sensitive nature of the site (SSSI). Mark P's awareness of the scottish culture is a big bonus for him and Trump would have done well to have learned something in this case.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #60 on: December 12, 2007, 03:08:28 AM »
David Tepper,

maybe you know more but as far as I am aware I believe Mark P did take a look at the same area a round Aberdeen that Trump is wanting to use. I also believe that, unlike Trump, he decided not to try building there due to the sensitive nature of the site (SSSI). Mark P's awareness of the scottish culture is a big bonus for him and Trump would have done well to have learned something in this case.

Jon

This was my point back in reply #7.  I would wager dimes to dollars that Trump knew exactly what he was getting into and just figured he might get away with it because of who he is and the promises he makes.  Perhaps Trump never thought he was gonna get away with it and placed the application on a wing and a prayer.  The question is, are Scottish ministers and government the answer to his prayers?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Rich Goodale

Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #61 on: December 12, 2007, 03:34:05 AM »
Sean

"Answer to his prayers" is very much overstating the case.  To finalise a deal, Trump is going to have to negotiate (indirectly) with Alex Salmond, who is a very formidable intellect and savvy politician.  Despite his bluster, The Donald will never find a site as good (all things being considered:  access to markets, complementary attractions, quality of the land, etc.) as the one he has now.  If Parsinen punted, it was probably because he couldn't raise the cash to make the Menie project work.

If there is a deal to be done, expect that the real estate component will be significantly scaled down and de-Trumpified (i.e. more tasteful).  The Scottish government is not so stupid as to give him everything he is asking for, and Trump not so stupid as to be unwilling to compromise.

All IMHO, of course.

Rich

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2007, 03:46:16 AM »
Sean

"Answer to his prayers" is very much overstating the case.  To finalise a deal, Trump is going to have to negotiate (indirectly) with Alex Salmond, who is a very formidable intellect and savvy politician.  Despite his bluster, The Donald will never find a site as good (all things being considered:  access to markets, complementary attractions, quality of the land, etc.) as the one he has now.  If Parsinen punted, it was probably because he couldn't raise the cash to make the Menie project work.

If there is a deal to be done, expect that the real estate component will be significantly scaled down and de-Trumpified (i.e. more tasteful).  The Scottish government is not so stupid as to give him everything he is asking for, and Trump not so stupid as to be unwilling to compromise.

All IMHO, of course.

Rich

Rich

I don't have a clue about Parsinen and what he did or didn't do or his ability to raise cash, but I must say he does seem to raise the necessary cash to get his projects off the ground - albeit with much more modest aspirations than Trump.  I would suggest this is the difference between creating a housing estate VS a golf project.

I don't think its overstating the case at all.  The government has interceded in local planning affairs.  The government could have sat back (which is normal) and let Trump go through the usual procedures or withdraw the application.  Instead, the government got involved - this in itself is a triumph on Trump's part.  I spose it could come to nothing, but now that the government has become involved, I think (as you say) a deal will be struck or they will risk looking very foolish for calling in the application.

I disagree with some people's take on this.  Many think the application failed (to date) because of Trump.  I think Trump has done remarkably well this application.  On the surface it would seem this application should have been blown out of the water.  It took a casting vote to turn it down and now its in government hands.  I think Trump's bluster is what WILL win the day for him.

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 12, 2007, 03:53:21 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2007, 08:02:57 AM »


As far as the US healthcare system needing control...there are controls and we have the BEST system in the world.  No government program is needed....why would you want an organization to run another program into the ground ala social security and medicare!


I am going to frame this.  This is a classic...
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2007, 08:26:56 AM »


As far as the US healthcare system needing control...there are controls and we have the BEST system in the world.  No government program is needed....why would you want an organization to run another program into the ground ala social security and medicare!


I am going to frame this.  This is a classic...

I tooka double take there, too.  
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2007, 12:52:55 PM »
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #66 on: December 12, 2007, 04:52:38 PM »
Martin,

Tell me that this is wrong!   Are there really 65 Aberdeenshire councillors (26-10 to oust + 29 abstensions)!  Do they each get 15,000 pounds per year ($30,000+)?  What a great gig!    

Opponents Sustainable Aberdeenshire, I think, claim "The full meeting did not have the power to reconsider or overturn the controversial decision to refuse US tycoon Mr Trump's application to build a golf course and luxury homes at the Menie Estate near Balmedie".  Can 8% of the council (5/65) really decide the issue?  And I thought that this was all about local representative democracy if not the will of the people.

By the way, I once had a project rejected unanimously by the Planning and Zoning commission and approved unanimously by city council.  Perhaps the two bodies are not analogous to Aberdeenshire's "infrastructure services committee"and the full council.  It would be very unusual that a small subset has final and irrevocable delegated authority from the whole.

Michael C,

Growing-up in northern Ohio in the 1960s, I got to see the decimation of the U.S. auto industry from very close.  No doubt that management bears much responsibility for the problems that have come home to roost.

But equally if not more so are the UAW and the socialist politicians funded and elected by that and various unions.  The spirit of negotiations was basically "us against them", and the unions had a virtual stranglehold on the companies.  With protectionist U.S. trade policies and a not-so-subtle prejudicial campaign against foreign goods ("cheap as a Japanese wrist-watch"), government became an enabler of the poorly designed, badly manufactured, and  shoddily serviced domestic automobile.    

To the surprise of the protectionists, what turned the quality of the American automobile around was the competition brought to us by freer trade, primarily by the much maligned Japanese.  While I believe that Toyota and Honda still build a much superior automobile in comparable classes than the American manufacturers, most "experts" opine that the difference, if any, is minimal.

Unfortunately, you are absolutely right about the legacy costs.  They are remnants of the day when union leaders thought exclusively about expanding union dues, and never considered that the franchise had at least three major stakeholders with interdependent interests.  To their detriment and that of many communities hosting auto plants and support businesses, American auto market share and union employment are but a fraction of what they once were.  When government and unions are pulling the wagon in one direction and management and capital are going the other way, the outcome can't be good.

Personally, I am not very optimisitc about Detroit.  Instead of looking inward and thinking outside the box, the state government has chosen to raise taxes.  Isn't doing things that don't work over and over while expecting different results a definition for lunacy?

Regarding the relative standing of U.S. health care, those who can afford it from throughout the world do come here.  Those who can't also come here as evidenced by the huge numbers of pregnant women who sneak over the border at considerable risk to drop their "anchor babies" here.  In terms of the quality of U.S. health care, people vote much more convincingly with their feet and wallets than with political opinions.

The facts are that when people in the U.S. are asked about their own health care plans, by more than a 70% majority they are very satisfied.  The disconnect is that these same people are not as optimisitc about everyone else's health care.

Of the so called 40 million "uninsured", a sizable number are young, single and not desirious of insurance.  Funny thing about insurance, no one wants it if they don't think they need it and would have to pay for it; while all those who need it want it and demand that others pay for it.

With health care spending in the U.S. around $2 trillion annually (16%+/- of GDP), and a vast proportion (over 70%, I think) paid by third parties, fully socialized health care is the inevitable conclusion of 60 years of incrementalism.  That will likely happen sooner rather than later given that nearly 50% of U.S. "tax-payers" do not pay federal income taxes, and the voter has learned he can vote himself a benefit at someone else's expense.  One hell of a social contract I would say!

I will be curious to see where the trial lawyers bar will then take their highly profitable mining operations.  Those of us who care about our children's children's futue will rue the day when the concept of personal resposiblity and self-reliance finally died.    

Michael Christensen

Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #67 on: December 12, 2007, 05:08:45 PM »
To all who think I was joking about the US Healthcare system...no I am DEAD serious.  I did healthcare consulting for 10 years....USA and non-USA plans.  There is no doubt in my mind we have the best quality for price in the world.  I am sure there may be some niche areas where it may be better...but overall, yes the good ole' USA has the best system.  Hopefully the government will never take it over, but I have given up that fight.  I personally have a $10,000 deductible plan....am not looking for a government handout...will pay whatever I need.

Good points Lou....I agree with all of them.  Unfortunately personal responsibility in the USA has gone the way of beta-max.  Everyone wants the government to take care of them.  I am fortunate to be in a position where in less than 5 years I will be out of the system.  Being one of the hated rich (which Hillary stated yesterday to be someone making $150K a year) I may even put it all into tax free munis.  That way I can avoid all of it except sales/property tax.  Maybe someday we can get the fair tax...but alas that is a pipe dream too!

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2007, 12:29:00 AM »
Geoff is reporting "The donald wins, The donald wins"

Martin Ford the chair whose vote broke the tie and denied the project was ousted as committeeman with a no confidence vote.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2007, 03:25:36 AM »
Hopefully the government will never take it over, but I have given up that fight.  I personally have a $10,000 deductible plan....am not looking for a government handout...will pay whatever I need.
Must be nice for you to be in that position Michael.  Good of you to think of all the poverty stricken millions in the US that cannot even afford $1,000 of healthcare let alone $10,000.

Just because a system gives good value for money does not mean it is the BEST in the world.

I find it weird how a system can be the best in the world or best value for money when each person in the US has to set up their own healthcare policy or get it negotiated into their company deal.

In Norway we pay....NOTHING extra for healthcare. I pay my basic Income Tax and that it is it. Each time I visit the doctor I pay a small sum of about $30 and the rest is covered by the Government.  Even if I visit the doctor 50 times in a year there is a cap of $150 for the year so the max I have to pay for the year is $150.

All major surgery is free in Norway.  So if I need operation for cancer it is free no extras, no insurance, it has already been covered in the income tax.  Admittedly my income tax is pretty high (36%) due to the fact I have very little debt and a quite high salary but the poorer you are in Norway the less income tax you pay.  My wife only works part time (for Niblick Golf Design) and only pays around 23% income tax.

The rest of the EU have a similar system with regards the health system apart from I think Ireland and a few others do have a private system similar to the US.  In the UK there is the NHS and a small sum is pulled from everyones wage each month (I cannot remember if it is the same sum or is based on a % of your wage) separate from the Income Tax.  This means that everyone is covered by the NHS.  

Now how good the NHS is in Britain is a completely different discussion...  ;)

I am sorry that this thread has been hijacked but Micheal, that is a pretty big statement you have made and you have not really explained how it is true.  How does the US have the best healthcare system in the world?  Even Cuba (arch enemy) has one of the best health systems in the world and produces some of the best nurses and doctors in the world.

I am more than willing to take this discussion on emails if you want or IMs (but then you risk others reading them).

Cheers.
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2007, 04:33:41 AM »
Brian,

The NHS splits opinion like nothing else.  Having had a son within 30 minutes of dieing from meningococal meningitis saved by a bunch of what looked to me like kids (but brilliant, dedicated, calm and composed kids) and a mother with chronic arthritis my view is that there is nowhere in the world I would rather be critically ill (if you see what I mean) but that it doesn't deal so well with chronic and less serious illness.

Nowhere can claim to have the best healthcare system in the world if the care you get when seriously ill depends on the depths of your pocket.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ed Tilley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #71 on: December 13, 2007, 04:46:55 AM »
Brian,

The NHS splits opinion like nothing else.  Having had a son within 30 minutes of dieing from meningococal meningitis saved by a bunch of what looked to me like kids (but brilliant, dedicated, calm and composed kids) and a mother with chronic arthritis my view is that there is nowhere in the world I would rather be critically ill (if you see what I mean) but that it doesn't deal so well with chronic and less serious illness.

Nowhere can claim to have the best healthcare system in the world if the care you get when seriously ill depends on the depths of your pocket.

The general impression on the NHS in the UK is that, if you are seriously ill, there are few places in the world you'd rather be for healthcare than the UK. The system only seems to really kick in in emergencies. I know a number of people with similar stories to Mark above.

However, if you're only slightly ill, then you might as well move to Outer Mongolia for all the use the NHS is. Or go private of course.

Rich Goodale

Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #72 on: December 13, 2007, 05:15:16 AM »
The NHS is as fascinating to me as is the US Health system increasingly bizarre.  Mark and Ed are right about the world class quality of acute and emergency care.  And, they don't ask you (or your loved ones) to produce your insurance card when you are lying on a gurney in the throes of a heart attack or a stab wound.  Chronic care, they are not at all bad.  I have Type 2 diabetes, and get all sorts of intervention, including 6-monthly blood tests, dieticians, podiatrists, specialized nursing consultations and free drugs for all direct and related conditions and potential complications  Where the system is poor is in preventative/proactive care.  If I hadn't spent 2000-2002 in the USA, and had a routine enter-the-practice, get a complete blood chemistry set of tests, I probably would never have been diagnosed as diabetic, as there were (and still are) no obvious symptons.  You have to be VERY aggressive in the UK to make sure that you are being examined and tested properly and proactively.

That being said, oine of my daughters had a "grumlbing" appendix and stayed in an NHS hospital for a couple of days before being discharged, with a "we don't know exactly what the f**k is happening, but come back if it gets worse" diagnosis.  A year later, in the US, same thing happened, she stayed for a few days, got a lot more tests, and the surgeon eventually said;  "We don't know exactly what the f**k is happening, but let's cut her just to be sure."  Sure enough, she had an inflamed appendix, which was removed.  When that would have been caught and with what consequences, if we had been in the UK, who knows.......

On the other hand, we once lost a child shortly after birth to a autosomal syndrome that hadn't even been identified at the time.  By the time "we" got pregnant again (2+ years later) , the NHS had identified the genetic cause of the syndrome, devised a test to see whether or not our next baby had the 25% chance of being affected, and gave us tremendous comfort and support, all through the 3-4 year process.  We never paid a penny or had to produce an insurance card.  It was both world class and dignified.  I will never forget that time in our life.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #73 on: December 13, 2007, 06:22:03 AM »
A total hijacking of a really intriguing thread. What a waste.
You could post something interesting to get the thread back on topic or you could take the easy approach and just criticise (still off topic).  Guess that's a no-brainer.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Rich Goodale

Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #74 on: December 13, 2007, 06:22:05 AM »
Yo Brad!

This thread started out and has always been about Political Science, and not Golf Course Architecture or even golf.  Have we exceeded your comfort zone by discussing political governance and social issues?  I hope not.

Rich

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