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Alfie

Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2007, 07:56:57 PM »
Sean said - "Scotland is an odd place.  When it suits them, they are a separate country.  When it doesn't suit them, they are not a separate country.  Believe me, from my perspective (and a large percentage of the English), I would be more than happy to let them be independent.  Then I could save on paying for Scottish politicians in London (this is a real piss take) and any further money that is sucked up from the south into their coffers.  As it stands now, no, I wouldn't treat Scotland any different so far as planning regulations go because for all intents and purposes the UK is one country so it should have planning regulations which make sense for the country as a whole.  "

........................................

Thanks Sean ! I really mean thank you so much !

From the above post and it's context I'm sure everyone indulging in this thread will now have an excellent handle on why we in Scotland - will be TAKING our Independence very soon ! Definitely the most arrogant post I've read on here, and of course, completely unfounded crap !

Something I'd expect to see posted in the gutter press - not here !

It used to be Scotland's oil - wonder where it all went ? :P

What's next Sean ? Rebellious Scots to crush ?
Aye right !

FREEDOM !

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2007, 10:24:08 PM »
Sorry to jump in late to this one, but I do wonder if someone more low-key, less inclined to grandiose statements, and hugely ambitious development plans right out of the gate could have gotten this through. Mike Keiser may have done a lot of things at Bandon, but I don't think he made huge sweeping statements about development and the stature of his course before it opened.

I think Trump underestimated how his bluster would go over in the UK.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2007, 05:13:29 AM »
Sean said - "Scotland is an odd place.  When it suits them, they are a separate country.  When it doesn't suit them, they are not a separate country.  Believe me, from my perspective (and a large percentage of the English), I would be more than happy to let them be independent.  Then I could save on paying for Scottish politicians in London (this is a real piss take) and any further money that is sucked up from the south into their coffers.  As it stands now, no, I wouldn't treat Scotland any different so far as planning regulations go because for all intents and purposes the UK is one country so it should have planning regulations which make sense for the country as a whole.  "

........................................

Thanks Sean ! I really mean thank you so much !

From the above post and it's context I'm sure everyone indulging in this thread will now have an excellent handle on why we in Scotland - will be TAKING our Independence very soon ! Definitely the most arrogant post I've read on here, and of course, completely unfounded crap !

Something I'd expect to see posted in the gutter press - not here !

It used to be Scotland's oil - wonder where it all went ? :P

What's next Sean ? Rebellious Scots to crush ?
Aye right !

FREEDOM !


Alfie

I am not sure what has gotten into you.  You very well know that the SNP is a party which stands for Scottish independence and that this party has slowly gained momentum until at the last election they became the largest political party in Scotland.  Thats fine.  I have no problem with the Scots controlling the destiny of Scotland.  My question is why does Parliament have Scottish representatives voting on issues that have nothing to do with Scotland and when Scotland has their own Parliament (of which the building cost a huge amount of money)?  I pay enough tax and ANY added layers of government which hike my tax bill are not appreciated.  

Many Scots want it three ways: UK taxpayer cash (essentially subsidies), representation on UK issues and not allowing London to interfer in Scottish politics - a measure of autonomy special to Scotland.  I don't know why you think this is arrogance on my part not to be in favour of indulging the above to Scots.  I don't mind if Scotland wants to go it alone - what I do mind is Scotland riding the fence at my expense.  Its purely a pragmatic position - nothing whatsoever to do with arrogance and everything to do with keeping my money in my pocket.  If you took my position as arrogance I apologize, but believe me, its the furthest thing from the truth.  

Ciao.  
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 05:20:14 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2007, 07:39:24 AM »
Sean and Alfie....I am enjoying this greater perspective.

Please enlighten me how the North of Ireland fits into the above, if at all.
But briefly, so as not to veer to far OT.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 07:39:56 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Matthew Hunt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2007, 11:03:32 AM »
Sean and Alfie....I am enjoying this greater perspective.

Please enlighten me how the North of Ireland fits into the above, if at all.
But briefly, so as not to veer to far OT.

Paul, he says he will both if he can...

TEPaul

Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2007, 11:41:43 AM »
There's a funny article in today's Philadelphia Inquirer about a fisherman/farmer, Michael Forbes, who's trying to hold up Trump's entire project by not selling him his land (23 acres). He doesn't seem to care what Trump offers him for it---he says its not for sale PERIOD!

The Donald offered him $790,000 for his land and some guy from London offered Forbes $1.5 mil for his land just so HE can be the guy to hold up Trump!  ;)

Forbes thinks the entire project stinks but not as much as he think Trump stinks.

Personally, I hope Forbes prevails and the Scots shoot down Trump and his whole project. If they do, The Donald says he'll just take it to Ireland because they definitely want it.

The Donald also says the courses he has planned for this Scottish project are definitely going to be the best golf courses in the world!  ;)

Just because Trump made a BS remark like that I'm personallly going to campaign that there's no way in hell Trump could ever do a golf course that could come close to the best in the world.

On the other hand, if The Donald pays me EIGHT HUNDRED DOLLAR I'll change my mind and campaign that there's virtually no way that they won't be the best in the world.

If he pays me another FOUR HUNDRED DOLLAR I'll even campaign that The Donald is actually the modern day version of George Crump in golf architecture.

But if I do that he has to virtually guarantee me he will shoot himself.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 11:44:12 AM by TEPaul »

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2007, 11:55:42 AM »
Robert Thompson -

For a look at how a slightly lower-key golf development can and will succeed in Scotland, check out Mark Parsinen's project at Castle Stuart.

www.castlestuartgolf.com

You can also go to www.youtube.com (search for Castle Stuart) and see 5 or 6 interesting video clips on the project.

DT  

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2007, 12:20:47 PM »
The Donald comes off as a modern day international carpetbagger.

Good luck with that approach.  ;D
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Dan Smoot

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2007, 12:32:51 PM »
"Selling our most precious non-renewable asset to anyone so that it can be sold back to us as a housing estate in exchange for a couple of golf courses and some jobs in catering is not economic development."  David H. Kelly

I was under the impression that the site was privately-owned, with Trump already holding title to the majority of the 1,400 acres.  This notion of communal ownership of others' private property rights that Mr. Kelly offers as gospel would not be surprising coming from a socialist or an enviromental activist.  That he is an entreprenuer, business owner, and employer is perplexing and outright scary.  Is every zoning and permitting decision in Scotland subject to "economic development" criteria?  I wonder if Mr. Kelly had to justify his business dreams in the context of community economic development

This is pure conjecture on my part, but perhaps Kelly is a NIMBY- he has his; it is not so important that others have opportunities in a relatively open marketplace to pursue similar attractive lifestyles in the area.  (CA is full of these, inclding a fair representation in the development community.)

One other point: Aberdeenshire is well-off economically today due in a good part to the energy sector.  Petroleum, a dirty word to most socialists and environmental acitivists, is a depleting asset and the North Sea fields have been depleting rapidly for a number of years.  One would think that diversifying the economy might have some urgency among the local political leaders.

Or perhaps the Trump deal does "suck" relative to other imminent alternatives for the site.  Is Trump asking for tax subsidies or abatements as a condition of going forward?  It is just hard to believe that given the vast amounts of undeveloped land in north Scotland, a $2 Billion infusion of capital to create some truly upscale assets with the retention of control by Scottish authorities (vis-a-vis zoning, permitting, taxes, labor regulations, etc.), is a turkey for the area.

Though it would set a bad precedent, perhaps the politicos should allow the community to vote the application up or down.  ...., but what do the common folk know, right?   ;)      


Lou

You are placing American "grow at all costs-land is plentiful" values on a country where land is in short supply.  I am afraid on an island this small and crowded - I do have a right to expect government to keep development in green belt/scientific interest/historical interest/national parks type areas to a minimum.  IMO, the UK should be creating more of these land preservation areas, not trading them for housing estates in areas which don't need that type or quantity of housing.  It may be a pinko attitude, but thats the reality of the UK.  Its overcrowded and just about every aspect of the infrastructure is stretched to the maximum.  IMO, when it comes to the UK, more is not better.  

Ciao

I find this thread very interesting.  I am not sure, since the vote was very close, if I fully understand the root of the oppostion.  Is it maintaining the property in its natural state, or the intended use of the land or is it the SCALE that Mr. Trump brings to any project?  In the US, his projects are monuments to the DONALD.  There is nothing subtle about him and anything he does.  Am I correct in believing that this somewhat goes against the grain of the people of the region, having never been to Scotland?

I have a hard time visualizing Mr. Trump taking on a project but keeping it on a scale like the one in Bandon, USA which I believe blends into the land very well and does not rely on real estate as a source of revenue.  I don't know the economics in this region but would like to understand what others from the area believe.



 

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2007, 12:47:59 PM »
Dan
I live locally to the project , and what absolutely disgusts me is how WE have allowed the sport of golf to be hijacked in the name selling hooses .

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2007, 01:25:15 PM »
Shivas,

Far be it from me to more than merely suggest a correct course of action in  resolving this matter.  What drew my eye to this thread was one poster's dismissive characterizations of the jobs that would be created, and another's inclusion of an article by a local businessman claiming some form of communal rights over private property.

As to your question, I am not a lawyer, don't think like a lawyer, and never had formalized legal training beyond business law in graduate school.  Philosophically, I am much more of a libertarian than a conservative or a Republican (with the big R).  If I had been around in the late 18th century, I could not have sided with the Hamiltonian federalists.

My idea of the social contract in a formalized form is the Constitution, interpreted narrowly, not as a "living document", but according to original intent.  My positions regarding private property go well beyond the IX and X Amendments, and include natural law and economics.

On the practical side, I don't hold that private property rights are absolute or inviolate.  By virtue of living in proximity to others, there are going to be tensions between the property rights of individual owners.  How these are resolved equitably is one of the great challenges.  Thankfully (or not) we have no shortage of folks in your profession to help muddle our way through.

From what I understand of this Aberdeenshire situation, the folks against don't like the scale, the high-end housing, and the impact on the environment.  They are perhaps trying to protect a bucolic setting and a small village lifestyle.  These folks are seeking to enforce certain communal rights over private property which may or may not exist in Scottish law by statute, precedence, or practice.

I suspect that more than a few on this site sympathize with the Against crowd.  Who doesn't love to hate Trump anyways?  Or the "rich" who would buy the lots and build those horrid mansions with huge carbon footprints?  And what does the world want with two more Fazio-routed courses?  A high-rise hotel for the wealthy?

Who's concerned anyways or even asking about what happens to Aberdeenshire when the North Sea fields become unproductive?  Have the locals ever heard of Detroit?  Buffalo?

We often complain about golf being too expensive and hard to access in the U.S.  Like with housing costs, it is more than a passing coincidence that the most expensive places are also plagued with the heaviest regulation.  You want affordable golf and housing avoid California and most of NY.  Go to Texas, Georgia, maybe Mississipi and Alabama.  While far from perfect, these states protect individual property rights to some degree and are open to pro-growth ideas.

So, Shivas, I hope that I somehow answered your question while rambling.  I do believe that we get the government we deserve.  Fortunately for Trump, he can take his money and go somewhere else more hospitable.  For those who habitually bite off their nose to spite their face, best of luck.

 

         

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2007, 01:36:17 PM »
Lou
What two Fazio routed courses are you talking about ?

Or are you too busy with your American views of the world that you cant keep up ?


Alfie

Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2007, 06:04:47 PM »
back again,

Sean said - "Alfie

I am not sure what has gotten into you.  You very well know that the SNP is a party which stands for Scottish independence and that this party has slowly gained momentum until at the last election they became the largest political party in Scotland.  Thats fine.  I have no problem with the Scots controlling the destiny of Scotland.  My question is why does Parliament have Scottish representatives voting on issues that have nothing to do with Scotland and when Scotland has their own Parliament (of which the building cost a huge amount of money)?  I pay enough tax and ANY added layers of government which hike my tax bill are not appreciated.  

Many Scots want it three ways: UK taxpayer cash (essentially subsidies), representation on UK issues and not allowing London to interfer in Scottish politics - a measure of autonomy special to Scotland.  I don't know why you think this is arrogance on my part not to be in favour of indulging the above to Scots.  I don't mind if Scotland wants to go it alone - what I do mind is Scotland riding the fence at my expense.  Its purely a pragmatic position - nothing whatsoever to do with arrogance and everything to do with keeping my money in my pocket.  If you took my position as arrogance I apologize, but believe me, its the furthest thing from the truth."  
.....

Sean,

What has gotten into me, is the typical Little Englander perpective that we Scots have been subjected to for far too long. 300 years to be precise ! You know, that was when England (Queen Anne) suppressed a Union onto Scotland who were "sold out" by our Scottish peers at that time, 1707. The Darien disaster had a little to do with it.

The question you ask re - Scots voting in Westminster has been brandished around these quarters since Devolution was being negotiated for Scotland. It's called "The West Lothian Question", which was raised by Tam Dalziel MP (Labour) in opposition argument against devolution. I'm surprised so few people in England have actually heard of it, because it was / has been a big, big, hugely massive, humungous constitutional topic in Scotland for the past ten years !
The question itself, which you now also raise, I have personally agreed with in principle since auld Tam brought it up. But I'm a nationalist seeking independence for Scotland which incidentally, would be good for both halves of the Union, so the actual question of why Scots should vote on English affairs is really none of my business. That problem is the remit of Unionists IMO.
re - costs ? Scottish Parliament Building = £500million or thereabouts. / renovation of a railway station, in London = £700million or thereabouts ?
To hosting of Olympic Games - present estimate £11billion or more like £15 - £20billion when it arrives ? Keep buying those Lottery tickets ! And probably a good time for me stress that ; nor do I like my Tax bills being hoisted courtesy of items of luxury for London !

And then, of course, we have the old and mythical reference of Scotland being a "subsidy junky" ? As an equal partner in this so called Union, I would appreciate greatly, if the good people of England began to realise that Scotland has more than paid it's way in buidling the Empire and a multitude of significant contributions in both Life & Death !

You may not realise this, but Little England attitudes are serving the Independence cause marvellously well.

To finish, I'll apologise right now for this political broadcast on a golf website, but I hope you will all understand that I had to reply to Sean's comments.
For those who may be interested, the Scottish Independence cause is not about hating the English, such as we nationalists have been portrayed by the fearful Unionists over the years as a scaremongering trick that has fell on it's face at last.
My late father was a Brummie (Birmingham) and I have countless relations and good friends south of the border, whom I would never wish to offend in any way !

BTW. A good solution to the West Lothian Question and being rid of the costly Scots - would be English independence  ;)

Alfie.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2007, 06:09:47 PM »
King Alfred the First of Scotland.

Has a certain something.... ;) Sounds damn good to me.

best,
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Jason McNamara

Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2007, 06:50:45 PM »
For a look at how a slightly lower-key golf development can and will succeed in Scotland, check out Mark Parsinen's project at Castle Stuart.

Good point, David.

Do you (or does anyone else) recall if there was significant opposition to the CS project when it was announced?

(And btw, anyone know how firm the plans are for course #2, etc.?)

Alfie

Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2007, 07:20:32 PM »
Martin,

How's that magical view looking over the 18th at TOC ?

Don't suppose you'd be interested in a Hickory dev't ? Very low key / low budget in comparison to Menie / ecologically friendly / not many acres / planners in the pocket down here in the south / no moving sand dunes to worry about / no crofters sitting in the middle with a shitheap farm / and Martin Ford hasn't been relocated to South Lanarkshire planning....yet ?

You know Martin, this dev't is just too good to be true  ;D

Nice pic, but could've done with a male / female model substitute ?

best regards,

Alfie.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2007, 08:22:07 PM »
Brian Ewen,

The following from the Trump Aberdeen website should answer your first question.

"A keen and highly regarded Colt specialist, Hawtree continues the work he consulted on at Trump International Golf Links, Scotland alongside Tom Fazio II, nephew of the legendary American golf course architect Tom Fazio.  Fazio’s original routing plan on the 1400-acre stretch of stunning sand dunes at Menie Estate, Aberdeenshire, is to remain largely intact but will be developed moving forward by Hawtree and his team of architects. Fazio will continue his work on the Trump properties in the United States, focusing on his masterpiece currently under construction at Bedminster, New Jersey."

Now I could be as derisive as you appear to be with your second question ("Or are you too busy with your American views of the world that you cant keep up ?") by pointing out in similar style the lack of information you possess on such an important project in your own backyard.  Alas, I'll just let these postings speak for themselves.

By the way, my views on property rights and economics are derived from your part of the world.  If they are considered "American" now and foreign to the rest of the world, it is not to our detriment.  While we are gradually moving in your direction here, the U.S. is still the place where people want to come.  We do not have problems with a declining population because people from throughout the world take all sorts of measures, legal and otherwise, to get here.  I am not aware of immigrants in sizable nunmbers are knocking the door down to get into Scotland.

And, by the way, why do you dislike homes so much ("I live locally to the project , and what absolutely disgusts me is how WE have allowed the sport of golf to be hijacked in the name selling hooses . ?")?  Or is it the people in those houses you don't like?  I could see someone questioning the need for golf courses, but for houses?  Where is your compassion?

A simple response to your question is that people like to live near open spaces, and golf courses fit that bill.   It is a symbiotic relationship which, if done right, yields very positive results for golf and housing.  For those who lament the high cost of golf, they should thank God or their lucky star that the residential component often subsidizes the golf course.  

Not to belabor the point, but I wasn't aware that "WE" can "allow" demand, though government can certainly affect the supply.  Perhaps you can articulate your point for my edification and the betterment of golf.   ;)

I also find it interesting that some here are suggesting that if Trump wasn't such an a-----e, he might have won the day.  Are the Scottish authorities, who ultimately control what goes on the ground, that simple-minded to declince an otherwise worthy application because of a principal's personality?  Perhaps they have a superior investor with a higher use for the site in their back pockets.  And maybe Trump can then play the hold-out like the local fisherman with his 20+ acres and cause some mischief.  Now, that would be justice!              



David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2007, 08:42:58 PM »
Jason McNamara -

I do not recall reading of any great outcry in the Inverness area over the golf project at Castle Stuart. That could be for several reasons:

1) Mark Parsinen had the experience of developing Kingsbarns under his belt.  He had been thru the planning process before.
2) The Castle Stuart development is being built on land owned by the Stuart Estate, so Parsinen did not have to acquire a number of contiguous parcels of land from different owners, as Trump has had to do.
3)  I do not think the land where the Castle Stuart project is being built is in any way as ecologically sensitive as the coastal sand dune area where Trump wants to build.
4) The Castle Stuart project does not have the VERY large housing component that appears to be the most objectionable part of Trump's project.

As it turns out, there are at least two proposals for sizeable residential developments between Inverness and Nairn now going thru the planning process, but they are in no way related to the Castle Stuart golf project.

I visited the Castle Stuart project in May. My sense is they are taking a "go slow" approach. I doubt they will start construction of the hotel/resort much before 2010. Construction of the 2nd course, which is routed on paper, may not begin for another 3 or more years.

DT    

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2007, 09:20:34 PM »

I also find it interesting that some here are suggesting that if Trump wasn't such an a-----e, he might have won the day.  Are the Scottish authorities, who ultimately control what goes on the ground, that simple-minded to declince an otherwise worthy application because of a principal's personality?  Perhaps they have a superior investor with a higher use for the site in their back pockets.  And maybe Trump can then play the hold-out like the local fisherman with his 20+ acres and cause some mischief.  Now, that would be justice!              

Lou

Why does it have to be a situation of "higher" use for the land.  Can't the land just be land?  Must everything be on the table for development?  

Alfie

You are barking up the wrong tree.  I don't care either way if Scotland is independent unless of course I can save money.  So far as I am concerned independence is a matter for Scots.  There is no need for flag waving and carrying on like some sort of southern diplomat where I am concerned.  However, if my money is to be taken from me and funneled up to Scotland then I do expect to have a say in Scottish affairs as exercised by my right to vote.  Its that simple.

Anyhow, enough is enough.  I have said before that the planning committee was set up to make these decisions on behalf of the council which are elected members.  Regardless of the decision of the committee, surely its best for local government as guided by planning regulations and recommendations to make the decision.  

This in fact is a great case for the system working and demonstrates why localized power works.  If enough locals don't like the decision maybe next time they will get off their asses, develop a core platform and run for election.  This is exactly why there are local governments - so local folks can run the show.  Its not like these guys are well paid - its is more or less voluntary.  I would be surprised if members are paid as much £4000 a year which is really designed to cover costs of being a councillor.  There is little point in bitching and a much greater point to getting involved.  

Ciao

« Last Edit: December 08, 2007, 09:20:51 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2007, 08:30:23 AM »
Its not like these guys are well paid - its is more or less voluntary.  I would be surprised if members are paid as much £4000 a year which is really designed to cover costs of being a councillor.  There is little point in bitching and a much greater point to getting involved.  


Arbs,
as of last year, they now receive a salary of around 15k a year + expenses. There is also a scale for additional remuneration for committee memberships, etc.
Loads of councillors chose to leave with a 30k 'redundancy' package when the new multi-member wards were introduced.

MB.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Phil_the_Author

Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2007, 09:53:16 AM »
David,

In addition to what you mentioned about the Castle Stuart project there are a number of things that Mark did quite differently than the Donald. If Trump was anywhere near as astute in business as he claims to be he would have studied the history of the Kingsbarns project.

First of all, there were a number of individuals and groups trying to develop the Kingsbarns site in the years leading up to mark's project. All of them made the same mistake which doomed their projects to failure; they didn't make themselves part of the community.

Mark bought an apartment and lived in St. Andrews. He spent evenings having dinner and talking with regular people, answering all of their questions and, most important of all,  LISTENING to what they had to say. He made sure that all within the area would be able to play the course when built at reasonable rates and went to great lengths to garner input and aid from the R&A.

He has done the same thing with the Castle Stuart project, buying a farm and living on site. He is there among the locals and they have come to trust him. In addition, they see him with dirt on his pants and mud on his shoes from being out there building...

He earns the respect of the people in the communities he builds in...

Trump has not and loses even more of the little credibility that he has when he, and those managing the project for him, make statements that the locals take as insulting...

Donald, check the ego at the door of Scotland and learn and be quiet...

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2007, 09:57:31 AM »
Its not like these guys are well paid - its is more or less voluntary.  I would be surprised if members are paid as much £4000 a year which is really designed to cover costs of being a councillor.  There is little point in bitching and a much greater point to getting involved.  


Arbs,
as of last year, they now receive a salary of around 15k a year + expenses. There is also a scale for additional remuneration for committee memberships, etc.
Loads of councillors chose to leave with a 30k 'redundancy' package when the new multi-member wards were introduced.

MB.

FBD

Sorry, I did get it wrong as I was looking at district council pay which is usually the authority which handles planning in England.  However, I don't know where £15,000 comes from for county cllrs.  That would be a very high rate indeed.  I can only find wages for 2005/06 and they are more like £7300 basic.  Even for the guys taking on what would seem to be loads of extra committee work the pay with expenses looks like it tops out at ~£23,000 - hardly a killing.  The average looks to be about £13,000.  This isn't the surprising aspect though.  It looks like the Abderdeen Co Council has about 65 members!  Jesus of beluga thats a hell of a lot of politicians for a county.  I know the UK is very top heavy with political reps, but this is insanity.

http://www.aberdeenshire.gov.uk/councillors/expenses0506.pdf

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Alfie

Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2007, 02:07:47 PM »
here's another article from Scotland On Sunday for anyone interested.
I thought it was well written and well balanced.


http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/opinion.cfm?id=1919112007

Alfie.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2007, 05:28:39 PM »
Sean,
summa the numbas:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/News-Extras/slarc

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2007/04/remuneration

It's twoo, IT'S TWOO! Was a REALLY big change. Lots of 'conscientious objectors' left public service due to it.

best,
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Trump, Aberdeen and American Muscle
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2007, 06:21:54 PM »
Sean,
summa the numbas:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/News-Extras/slarc

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2007/04/remuneration

It's twoo, IT'S TWOO! Was a REALLY big change. Lots of 'conscientious objectors' left public service due to it.

best,
F.

Jeepers!  I thought the folks in Worcesteshire were paid a load at ~£8,000 a year as it is meant to be a part time deal for most of the cllrs.  £15,000 is far too much unless expenses (mainly mileage) can't be claimed.  Maybe Scotland does need to sell off land if they are gonna pay that sort of dosh to 65 council members JUST FOR ABERDEENSHIRE.  I reckon there is a County Cllr for every 3350 people.  Worcestershire has one Co cllr for every 9500 people.  Whats going on up there?  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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