[Dan Kelly]

I asked some interesting (I thought!) questions in the "Uphill Par-3s" thread that got no response at all.

Perhaps they weren't interesting, after all.

Or perhaps they just got lost in the shuffle.

Here, again:

Quote from: Tom_Doak on December 02, 2007, 08:31:36 am
... most golfers don't notice that kind of stuff four holes in advance, so when they get to the sharply uphill par 3, they are disposed not to like it.

To Tom Doak, and anyone else who cares to answer --

Human beings are disposed not to like all sorts of stuff that's good for them -- including, I think, sharply uphill par-3s.

Do you think there's any hope of changing such dispositions?

How much more design freedom would you have if you could change people's "dispositions," or ignore them?

What sorts of holes would you design, that you don't design now?
 

[Peter Pallotta]

This was moving down the board much too quickly.

That's such a cool question, Dan. All I can think of right now is this:

the best that most designers can do is to take a calculated risk: "how many holes that I need for my ideal routing/course will golfers be disposed not to like, how many of those can I get away with, and how less ideal of a routing/course will I accept so that those numbers match?"

But this is a big topic with a lot of ways to approach it; I hope others jump in.

Peter

[Jeff Doerr]

Dan,

I think anticipation overcomes some features that may fail to inspire in other circumstances. The uphill hole is a perfect example. Most love the vantage point from the "high ground" and love the downhill hole. That is overcome when one knows that something great lies after the climb.

The second at Bandon is like that for me. I know the great third tee lies beyond and the trek to the tee is marvelous as a par 3.

In Jordan's thread I mentioned #7 at Cypress. While not a strong uphill in feet, it does climb to the great and mysterious tee shot at #8.

Pacific Dunes #9 portrays the dilema well. I prefer the downhill second shot to the left/lower green. But, I'll gladly go to the upper for the anticipation of the high tee for #10.

At Rustic Canyon Hole #15 is a good uphill par 3 that my friend Scott mentioned. The anticipation beyond is the great tee on 16.

[Tom_Doak]

Dan:

I've never been a fan of sharply uphill par-3's myself, for whatever reason, so I've probably never built a good one.  Now I guess I'll have to start looking for one.

To answer your other questions more generally:

a)  I don't know if you can change people's general nature about disliking certain types of features.  I think you can override them in specific applications -- in other words, I'm sure there are some uphill par-3's that I would call great holes, but I still believe there are many more bad ones than good ones.

b)  I don't know how I could have any more design freedom than I have, unless I were financing the projects myself.  I basically have to answer to a single client, and as long as his prejudices and mine don't get in the way, we can build whatever we want.  But nearly every client I've worked for has expressed some trepidation about some part of the routing or design along the way -- most commonly issues about the scorecard.

c)  What sorts of holes would I design that I don't design now?  It will take me a while to think about that one because I don't often think in terms of "blue sky" design.  Generally, I'm reading a topo map and trying to fit holes to it, and even though I'm VERY good at reading a topo map, I think everyone has a tendency to visualize certain types of holes more than others.  For example, Coore & Crenshaw build a couple of "up & over" par-4's or 5's on nearly every course they build -- Bill loves the downhill approach shot on those, whereas I have a harder time getting past not seeing where the tee shot is landing (and if there's anybody about to get hit up there).  But, I do like the variety it puts into their golf courses overall, so I'm trying harder to find a place to build a similar type of hole.

[Rich Goodale]

Dan

Golfers are indisposed to sharply uphill shots for the same reason that they indisposed to the look and smell of dog poo--it has been bred into us over millennia.  Just as our earliest ancestors learned the hard way to not eat dog poo, later generations learned that climbing up a hill to reach a well defended objective would probably result in either being crushed by a boulder or burned in hot oil.  So, today people neither smell dog poo nor look favo(u)rably on blind summits.

End of lesson.

Rich

[Dan Kelly]

Thank you, gentlemen. Interesting answers.

Tom Doak wrote: "I've never been a fan of sharply uphill par-3's myself, for whatever reason, so I've probably never built a good one.  Now I guess I'll have to start looking for one."

Could "for whatever reason" mean: You've never (or rarely) had fun playing them -- so you haven't often looked for the chance to build one? I wonder how much of every GCA's work (not just Jack's) is a reflection of his own *playing* preferences.

And now I wonder: Are you not a fan of sharply uphill approaches to par-4s and par-5s? Is there a difference between a sharply uphill par-3 and a sharply uphill conclusion to a par-4 or par-5?

Jeff Doerr -- Very interesting perspective. The reward justifies the punishment.

Rich -- For whatever reason (Catholic upbringing, Irish blood, Norwegian blood, general perversity, some combination of all that and more), I am disposed to like uphill holes. To me, they feel like ... for lack of a better word ... LIFE (at least as I know it).

I suppose I could elaborate on that, at numbing length, but then I'd have to accuse myself of what my friend Rick Shefchik calls "beard-pulling." So I'll leave it there, for now.

(Oh, and by the way: I like the sound of the "Dog Poo School" of golf course architecture -- though I'm still wondering what is "the hard way to not eat dog poo." Not eating dog poo has always been pretty easy for me!)

[George Pazin]

Dan

Golfers are indisposed to sharply uphill shots for the same reason that they indisposed to the look and smell of dog poo--it has been bred into us over millennia.  Just as our earliest ancestors learned the hard way to not eat dog poo, later generations learned that climbing up a hill to reach a well defended objective would probably result in either being crushed by a boulder or burned in hot oil.  So, today people neither smell dog poo nor look favo(u)rably on blind summits.

End of lesson.

Rich

How do you explain mountain climbing?

[Jeff Doerr]

Dan

Golfers are indisposed to sharply uphill shots for the same reason that they indisposed to the look and smell of dog poo--it has been bred into us over millennia.  Just as our earliest ancestors learned the hard way to not eat dog poo, later generations learned that climbing up a hill to reach a well defended objective would probably result in either being crushed by a boulder or burned in hot oil.  So, today people neither smell dog poo nor look favo(u)rably on blind summits.

End of lesson.

Rich

How do you explain mountain climbing?

How do you explain the inbred desire to have your castle or house on top of the hill - the well defended objective?

[Rich Goodale]

Dan

Golfers are indisposed to sharply uphill shots for the same reason that they indisposed to the look and smell of dog poo--it has been bred into us over millennia.  Just as our earliest ancestors learned the hard way to not eat dog poo, later generations learned that climbing up a hill to reach a well defended objective would probably result in either being crushed by a boulder or burned in hot oil.  So, today people neither smell dog poo nor look favo(u)rably on blind summits.

End of lesson.

Rich

How do you explain mountain climbing?

Bad genes.

[George Pazin]

Dan

Golfers are indisposed to sharply uphill shots for the same reason that they indisposed to the look and smell of dog poo--it has been bred into us over millennia.  Just as our earliest ancestors learned the hard way to not eat dog poo, later generations learned that climbing up a hill to reach a well defended objective would probably result in either being crushed by a boulder or burned in hot oil.  So, today people neither smell dog poo nor look favo(u)rably on blind summits.

End of lesson.

Rich

How do you explain mountain climbing?

Bad genes.

 

[Dan Kelly]

Dan

Golfers are indisposed to sharply uphill shots for the same reason that they indisposed to the look and smell of dog poo--it has been bred into us over millennia.  Just as our earliest ancestors learned the hard way to not eat dog poo, later generations learned that climbing up a hill to reach a well defended objective would probably result in either being crushed by a boulder or burned in hot oil.  So, today people neither smell dog poo nor look favo(u)rably on blind summits.

End of lesson.

Rich

How do you explain mountain climbing?

Bad genes.

LOL.

[Rick Shefchik]

I'll resisted tugging on a chin whisker here, but to me the big difference between uphill par 3s and uphill approach shots on par 4s and 5s is the lie. Usually your uphill approach shot is going to be off an uphill lie, which somehow feels more natural than hitting off a flat lie to an uphill target. (My wife can be relied upon to hit her worst drives on uphill holes -- she admits it's the perceived necessity to get the ball higher into the air.)

One thing I think many of us would agree upon: The shot to be avoided, at almost any cost, is the downhill lie to an uphill green. Good thing they don't make par 3s like that.

[Kalen Braley]

Rick,

And to make things more awkward, you have the downhill lie to an uphill green like the 18th at Olympic.  Those shots have always been very tough on me.

[Rick Shefchik]

Me too, Kalen. But it sure would be fun to try to pull off the shot on that particular hole. In fact, I officially submit that as one idea of fun for JK's current thread -- difficult but familiar shots on famous golf courses.

[Tom_Doak]

Rick:

I'd like to come up with a downhill approach to an uphill green, as long as it's not too steep.  The 5th at Swinley Forest is a great example; the 9th at Augusta is too much for me.  The 10th at High Pointe is one of the few I've actually built.

[Garland Bayley]

Dan,

simple as this. if you can get people out of their golf carts, they will appreciate uphill par 3s. unfortunately, in this day and age, designers (including posters here) depend on golf carts to get people up to the next tee so they can play the hole downhill. i say fooey on such designs. i will gladly walk up any hole so that my green to tee walk doesn't have to be uphill. i have mentioned the 6 to 7 walk at black mesa many times here, so let that be my prototypical example of bad design with respect to traditional walking golf.

[J_ Crisham]

The 18th at Olympic at least you should not have more than an  8iron in your hands. This is easier than some of the other approaches off some quite severe sidehills.

[Garland Bayley]

Dan

Golfers are indisposed to sharply uphill shots for the same reason that they indisposed to the look and smell of dog poo--it has been bred into us over millennia.  Just as our earliest ancestors learned the hard way to not eat dog poo, later generations learned that climbing up a hill to reach a well defended objective would probably result in either being crushed by a boulder or burned in hot oil.  So, today people neither smell dog poo nor look favo(u)rably on blind summits.

End of lesson.

Rich

So tees shouldn't be put on hillseither. That's it! Rich's theory explains Florida Golf.

[Rich Goodale]

Wrong, Garland!

Climbing a few paces onto a tee evokes an atavistic memory of the kings and generals who used to find slightly elevated platforms to watch their churls and vassals getting crushed by boulders and fried in boiling oil whilst trying to climb a distant hill.  A tee is a warm and friendly place where nobody loses a shot unless they are inclined to join the rabble by actually entering the fray.

Addendum--my father-in-law once played Dornoch with a local who, when he got to the 6th tee (slightly elevated and 150 yards away from a slightly more elevated green) walked forward when it was his turn to play without firing a shot.  "Why?" was the obvious question.  "This hole is too hard.  I never play it" was the reply.

[Dan Kelly]

Climbing a few paces onto a tee evokes an atavistic memory of the kings and generals who used to find slightly elevated platforms to watch their churls and vassals getting crushed by boulders and fried in boiling oil whilst trying to climb a distant hill.  A tee is a warm and friendly place where nobody loses a shot unless they are inclined to join the rabble by actually entering the fray.

Eureka!

1. I must be disposed to *like* uphill shots because my ancestors were among the surviving churls and/or vassals!

2. My uneasiness on the tees has nothing to do with fearing that I might soon foozle one into the weeds -- or yank one OB. It has everything to do with my unconscious awareness that I am standing on ground where only kings and generals (the bastages!) "rightly" stand.

Thanks for the insights, dubby! (Oops. Buddy!) I'll be so much more comfortable on the course from now on.

Self-awareness is a beautiful thing...

[Peter Pallotta]

Quite a bit of theoretical/speculative thinking going on there, coming from a couple of gents who think golf simply a game.  No criticism intended: I believe consistency the hobgoblin of little minds; or as the American writer wrote "I contradict myself? So I contradict myself - I am large and contain multitudes".



P

[Dan Kelly]

Quite a bit of theoretical/speculative thinking going on there, coming from a couple of gents who think golf simply a game.  No criticism intended: I believe consistency the hobgoblin of little minds; or as the American writer wrote "I contradict myself? So I contradict myself - I am large and contain multitudes".

Peter --

He started it! And I'm pretty sure I, at least, am just goofing around -- though maybe not!

(Apparently you disagree with Emerson. He thought a *foolish* consistency was the hobgoblin of little minds. I might be foolish, but I'm sure as hell not consistent!)

Dan

[Kyle Henderson]

I enjoy uphill par 3's purely because of their rarity. They stand out from the pack, even if they may not be of supreme quality in an architectural sense.

Also, my opponents usually "psyche" themselves out on these holes...  

[Andy Troeger]

Dan,

simple as this. if you can get people out of their golf carts, they will appreciate uphill par 3s. unfortunately, in this day and age, designers (including posters here) depend on golf carts to get people up to the next tee so they can play the hole downhill. i say fooey on such designs. i will gladly walk up any hole so that my green to tee walk doesn't have to be uphill. i have mentioned the 6 to 7 walk at black mesa many times here, so let that be my prototypical example of bad design with respect to traditional walking golf.

Garland,
If you could have figured out how to route a hole successfully over the gap in the ridge/mesa/cliff at Black Mesa I'd enjoy critiquing it. I think you could find better examples of taking a golfer up a hill only to hit down again. At least that one was a natural feature that HAD to be crossed given the routing. Its a steep walk to be sure, but that's part of the reason hitting over it would have been awkward as well.

Plus the walk is between #7 and 8  

There is a hole in NM that has the feature you dislike and that is #16 at Paa-Ko Ridge where you do have to walk backward and uphill to get to the tee. IMO the view and the golf hole are both well worth the effort but it sounds like something you wouldn't care for. To each their own...

[Adam Clayman]

Garland does continue to bash the design of Black Mesa due to his walk from the right side of the 7th green.  He refuses to accept responsibility for his lack of awareness while playing the hole. If he had been aware, he would've noticed the only way the route would go, was to the left. If he had exited green left, the walk is but a trifle.

Andy brings up excellent points about the site constraints, but I do disagree with the worthiness of the 17th at PKR.

BTW, the worst walks in NM are on JN's Las Campanas' Sunset course.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()