[jeffwarne]

If we follow all the "rules" such as

 no uphill par threes
and no downhill lies to uphill greens

won't it get pretty boring?

Downhill lies to uphill greens requires skill and or strength that can separate players who must adapt,find an alternate approach, get up and down, or lose a hole (or shot)

 I also like uphill par threes because they require more judgement and add a little mystery to where the ball finishes.
(no one ever ran down a hill to see how close his ball was on a downhill par three)
The best par three  I know of is an uphill 205 yarder at Goat Hill on Shelter Island to a shelf green cut out of the hill.


I guess that's why I like golf in the UK so much more-most courses were laid out without so many rules (although over time many have been "modernized" and the some of the quirk sucked out of them)

I HATE uphill walks and rides to play downhill holes--boring and tiring

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff W:

Can you think of a couple of uphill par-3's you really like?

[Dan Kelly]

I'm not Jeff W. -- but I really liked ... is it 13 at Sand Hills? ... and I really like No. 6 at Sutton Bay.

Do those count as uphill enough?

I like the two uphill par-3s at The Wilds, Nos. 7 and 13 (Prior Lake, Minn.; Morrish and Weiskopf).

I like two uphill par-3s at Oak Ridge CC (Hopkins, Minn.), on the front 9, Nos. 3 and 7.

As I said, maybe I'm perverse...

[jeffwarne]

Tom,
I just mentioned my favorite par 3 #9 at Goat Hill on Shelter Island-depending on wind -nuke 5 iron to punch bump and run driver (which has to land short enough to be rolling up the hill-will reject a ball that flies into it.
Can also bank it off the Clubhouse behind

#14 Augusta Country Club (disclaimer I grew up there)
145 yards tipped out -
Bobby Jones aced it with a smoothed 4 iron run up (everybody else in the group hit 6 iron)

The NLE 13th hole at Forest Hills in Augusta -blown up to build a gym for the college
160 yards

#11 at Shinnecock

#4 at Augusta cc was pretty good at 141 yards until they elevated the tee 15 feet and lowered the green and removed the deep bunker in front-all so you could see the pin-despite the fact you walked 30 yards fromit on #3 fairway.
I play it with a putter now out of protest

#8 at Maidstone is a little uphill (or does the dune just make it feel that way.

# 8  Friar's Head

#8 Trevose

#5 Westward Ho

#7 at Narin and Portnoo (or is it



There aren't many,that's probably why I like them all.

On most modern courses if there's an opportunity for an uphill hole(or they have to use the terrain) they'll elevate the tee so you end up walkng up to play across a dip.

 I grow VERY tired of downhill shots in general off a tee, although I think they're pretty cool into a green, which is less common because the downhill has been incorpoated into the tee shots.

[jeffwarne]

That was supposed to be an 8

[jeffwarne]

#9 Palmetto

[M. Shea Sweeney]

#5 Fishers Island--I think this is a pretty good par 3??


#9 at Goat Hill is awesome--Jeff is right, you can hit many clubs into this green-- I've seen him hit 3 iron, oh and once a 5 wood except it landed in the road OB right !  

[TEPaul]

Dan:

Your initial post is a very good one.

Go over to Pat Mucci's thread "Aesthestics in design, a natural progression?" and take a look at post #32 and tell me what you think and if you think it has any relevence to this thread and subject.

Of course, I'm not just talking about uphill par 3s, I'm talking about the possibilities of changing golfers' dispostions or perceptions of golf and architecture.

The question may some day come around to this:

Do golfers over time make golf architects basically do what they do or can golf architects somehow truly influence golfers' dispostions and perceptions of golf and golf architecture as to what it should or shouldn't be?

[Joe Hancock]

The question may some day come around to this:

Do golfers over time make golf architects basically do what they do or can golf architects somehow truly influence golfers' dispostions and perceptions of golf and golf architecture as to what it should or shouldn't be?

Does this hypothetical question exist, hypothetically, in TomPaul's Big World? Should should and shouldn't even exist in TPBW?

My brain hurts, Mr. Gumby......

[Dan Kelly]

Go over to Pat Mucci's thread "Aesthestics in design, a natural progression?" and take a look at post #32 and tell me what you think and if you think it has any relevence to this thread and subject.

Oh, right, that's the thread Patrick started about 20 minutes after I asked him, in the "Opinions Please" thread, what he meant by "EYE CANDY."

I'll look at post #32 sometime.

Do I need to read posts #1 through 31 first?

[RJ_Daley]

I gotta go with Jeff Warne in his thoughts on disliking a trip up a hill to tee rampart before attacking a hole, that will probably be down from there.  I got a lot of that at Erin Hills and as a walker felt it was unnecessary.  Disposition wise, I reckon most golfers (who happen to be in carts) don't notice it much or don't feel the unnecessary effort to keep play going at a nice pace.  So, they zip on up to play on down, no sweat.

I love uphill par 3s in moderation, and proportion.  I can't think of a steeply up (say more than 40ft ele par 3 that stands out in my mind right at the moment).  But, uphill is a rising feeling to me, and I like up hill targets, either from a tee or from the preferred LZ of a good golf hole.

I had quite a golf philosophical discussion with Dan Proctor once about the preferred finishing hole of a great course design.  I said I like those that rise to a crescendo finish and a finish to be conquered, he liked those the come home to a down in the welcoming home valley sort of thing.  I think that goes to individual dispositions...  

BTW, I am sufficiently scarred from boiling oil poured down upon me by many uphill attempts I have made, in life so to speak, so my liking up hillers is a puzzle for Dr. Katz to analyse, I guess.  

[Dan Kelly]

Those 7,000 yard courses everyone seems to want can get awfully damned long without any elevated tees.

[jeffwarne]

Solves a lot of problems doesn't it Dan.

Hmmm less long walks up tees.
Holes that play the same length as longer holes that have consistently elevated tees.

Faster play, less land to buy and maintain,,,hmmm.

A famous "tee elevator" told me a couple years ago  the "newest thing" in architecture was tees lower to the ground "because the ball was going so far"

Geez those old dead guys were so visionary...

[Kalen Braley]

For those of you who are bay area boys...I have to call out number 18 at Lake Chabot as the most extreme example of downhill lie to an uphill green that I've ever played.

The hole is a downhill par 6 that dog legs left.  If you don't hit your 2nd or 3rd shot, (depending on if you hit it long like Huck, or short like me), all the way to the bottom of the hill, then you can have an approach shot in to a green that is 30-40 feet above you, and the downhill lie is very severe.  I've played this several times and its just an impossible shot for me.  I usually end up bashing it into the hillside leading up to the green and hope it rolls up to the surface.  I wish I had a pic, one of the craziest holes I've ever played...

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