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Patrick_Mucci

SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« on: December 02, 2007, 01:16:37 PM »
In the most recent edition of "Golfweek" Brad Klein touched upon an interesting point.

The effect and value of hole location on playing strategy.

On what holes, on which courses, does the varied location of the hole substantively alter the playing strategy ?

I would submit that the "template" holes provided this diversity on par 3's, such as the Redan, Biarritz and Eden, and to a lesser degree on the Short, despite the fact that par 3's tend to be strictly target golf.

On par 5's and par 4's, the location of the hole on The Road Hole green would seem to substantively affect play on the second and approach shot, and even the recovery shot.

Specifically, which holes, on which golf course have their play substantively altered by the location of the cup ?

Tangentially, has the more aerial nature of ball flight somewhat muted the intended effect ?

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2007, 02:09:39 PM »
Pin location does have an effect on my strategy on some holes.  For instance the first hole at my club, Four Streams is a short par five.  Except for a dreadful tee shot there are no bunkers on the hole.  The green is where the trouble starts.  The left side of the green slopes considerably from left to right.  I like to be on the right side of the fairway for the shot into the green so I am hitting into the hill rather than trying to guess how much my ball will roll to the right if I come at it straight on. On the other hand the right side of the fairway has a false front and the green is very shallow.  I like to come at that pin from the left so I can aim away from the false front.  I have had too many balls come up short or or spin back off the green.  Coming in from the left gives me some room for error.

Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Andy Troeger

Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2007, 03:00:33 PM »
Generally it would seem like bigger greens and greens with significant contour would cause the biggest shifts in strategy.

I think it makes the biggest difference on short par fours and par fives because they sometimes give more options on different routes to the hole. On a longer hole/shot the play often is just to get on the green for most players.

#7 and #14 at Black Mesa are good examples. Of the par threes I've seen #4 at Paa-Ko Ridge provides the most variety being that its 100 yards long. Talk about a difference in club selection to the pin location!

#7 at Blackthorn in South Bend, IN is a par five with substantive changes due to the width of the green and the fronting bunkers. Depending on the pin its often better to try to go long with the second shot on the par five and try to chip back to the green up the hill.

Patrick,
I'm trying to think of anything at Warren since I know its one course we're both familiar with but there's not as great of examples there as the others I mentioned. Possibly #5 with that front bunker would be the best example since that could dictate strategy on the second shot (left or right side of fairway and/or going for the green).

Jason McNamara

Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2007, 03:23:53 PM »
Isn't there one hole in particular at Crystal Downs (a par 5, I think) where it is essential* the golfer remain below the hole?

(This is second-hand; I hope those who have played the course will chime in.)

* even more so than on other CD holes.

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2007, 04:26:32 PM »
One hole comes to mind that may or may not be exactly to the point of this thread: #17 at Cypress Point.

If the pin is as far back and right as possible, you could challenge the ocean on your drive, with a reasonable chance of hitting your approach shot to the right of the tree complex in the fairway. Not the smartest tee shot, perhaps, but I don't know if most players are long enough off the tee to be able to get a clear shot at that hole location by hitting the safe drive down the left side of the fairway. If the hole location is front left, however, it should be more accessible to a conservative drive.

As to your second question, Patrick, I don't think there's any doubt that the aerial game has made this less of an issue. My example concerns an obstacle in the middle of the fairway; I believe the Road Hole bunker and other such greenside hazards have been rendered much less potent by the modern game.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Patrick_Mucci

Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2007, 09:58:47 PM »
Rick,

I was just thinking of the road hole bunker and how I saw a golfer, just short of the bunker at # 7 at NGLA, with the pin cut behind it, hit a crisp Lob Wedge with lots of spin that left him a 3 foot putt, a shot absolutely unthought of when the hole was designed.

I was also reflecting on ball flight into the Redan when it was first introduced in the U.S., a low shot that had no chance of holding the green if the ball landed in the middle of the green.

Today, high cuts with more lofted clubs practically stop on a dime.

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2007, 12:00:38 AM »
Pat, some holes that I'm thinking of are at LACC beacuse of the fact of GT's course within a course concept. The way the course sits now, 5 is an obvious one. The pin location on the right side was intended for the "short" tee. I really don't know if the club ever uses that pin location very often, naturally it would alter the hole substantially because Thomas never intended for it to be used with the tee that is used to day, the "long" hole tee. 7 would be another there for the obvious par 3/par 4 combo possibilities.


I don't know how it's playing as of now because of TD's work, but the 11th at Pasa is another that can play dramatically different depending on the pin. If long on a front pin, it's a task to get it in in 2. The length of the green can make a huge difference in club length depending if the pin is front or back. If it's front, it's actually not a bad thing at all to miss the green short, provided the lie is good.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Patrick_Mucci

Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2007, 08:06:00 PM »
With the first Major held at ANGC, how many of those holes have strategy dictated by cup location ?

# 2 ?, # 3 ?, # 8 ?, # 9 ?, # 11 ?, # 12 ? # 13, # 15 ?, 16 ?

Rich Goodale

Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2007, 05:45:44 AM »
Today, high cuts with more lofted clubs practically stop on a dime.

Pat

You are either too young to remember, or your glasses have taken on too much of a rose colored tint.  High cuts with more lofted clubs (mashie niblicks), stopped on a dime 100+ years ago.  I doubt if the Redan was ever a low-lofted shot, except for people like Tom Paul who doesn't have the strength and/or the vision to hit the ball more than a few yards off the ground......

Sean_A

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Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2007, 06:04:03 AM »
Today, high cuts with more lofted clubs practically stop on a dime.

Pat

You are either too young to remember, or your glasses have taken on too much of a rose colored tint.  High cuts with more lofted clubs (mashie niblicks), stopped on a dime 100+ years ago.  I doubt if the Redan was ever a low-lofted shot, except for people like Tom Paul who doesn't have the strength and/or the vision to hit the ball more than a few yards off the ground......

Rihc

We are getting into dangerous territory.  It wasn't much longer than 100 years ago that everybody played the mush ball.  Stopping this soggy potato on a dime was no great accomplishment - I know as I have tried it.  I seem to recall Tillie writing an article in the 30s lamenting the fact that many top players could not hold a cut into the wind with mid irons.  They were still hitting draws turning with the wind with little control once the ball landed.  Of course, Tillie blamed the modrn idea of matching sets of irons with closely measured degree of loft.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 06:04:41 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Rich Goodale

Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2007, 06:19:47 AM »
Sean (and Pat)

I've posted this quote before, but once more into the breach.... :-*  (parentheses are my comments)

"One of my boyhood memories carries me back to an occasion in 1904 (post Haskell).   I stood by the putting green at "The Witch," Dornoch, a hole of 165 yards.  I saw JH Taylor play his 'Taylor mashie' off the tee, saw the ball coming up, saw it pitch on the green then bite into the turf and spin back for a yard.  The first time I had ever seen that kind of shot."

"Donald Ross of Dornoch and Pinehurst."  Donald Grant, 1973.

Dan King has posted on another thread how easily the Redan (at its forward tees of 185 yards or so ;)) played in North Berwick at a pro tournament in the 19th century.  The "ground game" is highly over-emphasized on this forum.

Rich (and Rhic)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2007, 06:41:35 AM »
Sean (and Pat)

I've posted this quote before, but once more into the breach.... :-*  (parentheses are my comments)

"One of my boyhood memories carries me back to an occasion in 1904 (post Haskell).   I stood by the putting green at "The Witch," Dornoch, a hole of 165 yards.  I saw JH Taylor play his 'Taylor mashie' off the tee, saw the ball coming up, saw it pitch on the green then bite into the turf and spin back for a yard.  The first time I had ever seen that kind of shot."

"Donald Ross of Dornoch and Pinehurst."  Donald Grant, 1973.

Dan King has posted on another thread how easily the Redan (at its forward tees of 185 yards or so ;)) played in North Berwick at a pro tournament in the 19th century.  The "ground game" is highly over-emphasized on this forum.

Rich (and Rhic)

Rich

You misunderstand me.  I took Tillie to mean post-mush when he wrote of the old days and guys holding cut shots into the wind as a great skill.  I wouldn't have thought there would be any point of praising a mush ball which stopped quickly.  Of course, these shots were more than likely successful only with the assistance of wind and/or soft greens.  

I, like you presumably, think the ground game was used in the old days when there wasn't a better option.  Perhaps the ground game had its hey day when the Haskell was first introduced and used on newly built (or newly revised) long courses (for the day).  This is one of the aspects of heathland courses which was a revelation when first built - many were very long.  Much like today, the average decent player had no business stepping back to the tips.  When you consider that a load of these ole turn of the century courses have not been extended much and that folks are still challenged today, they must have been brutishly long 100 years ago.

BTW Wasn't Dan saying that the Redan played easy as a par 4 and quite difficult as a par 3 (in relation to par of course)?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Rich Goodale

Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2007, 06:52:57 AM »
Sean

As I remember, Dan was saying that in the toonamint, the average score for the redan was ~3, which implied it was played from the 185 tees rather than the 240 yard ones.

You are right that the 6000 yards courses built at the turn of the century would have been brutal for the average punter, even with the Haskell ball.

I don't really get your (and Tillie's?) idea of "holding mush balls into the wind."  I would have thought the exact opposite.  If I had a mush ball and it was windy, I'd try to get it as close to the ground as soon as possible.  It was not for nothing that Tom Paul played Lady Precepts in his prime......

Patrick_Mucci

Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2007, 08:33:44 PM »
Rich,

My recollection is that Nicklaus popularized or revitalized the high cut.

Prior to his play, the DRAW was the prefered shape, with a low draw ideal for drives on dry fairways.

Can you name 5 PGA Tour players whose shot patter was the high fade BEFORE Nicklaus came along ?

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2007, 12:35:41 AM »
The only one who comes to mind is Hogan, who couldn't win until he stopped drawing the ball and started fading it (however slightly). Whether he played it high, I couldn't say -- I wasn't around to watch, unfortunately.

I haven't changed my opinion that the aerial game has dramatically changed strategy in the past 30 years or so, but I do wish I could figure out how to stop a ball as quickly as I'm supposed to be able to with the new balls and new irons. I can't get a ball to back up unless I've already finished short of the hole.

"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Rich Goodale

Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2007, 05:41:50 AM »
Pat, Nicklaus never could be said to have "popularised" the high cut, as he was the only one who could do it (and even today, few can do it with regularity and precision)!

I am also unsure how this has any relevance to the topic.  Good players for the past 100 years have been able to put significant backspin on the ball, whether playing right to left or left to right.

Also, there have always been choices as to shifts in strategy off the tee depending on hole position, but they were, are and always will be highly subtle, rather than SUBSTANTIVE.  On the great (and even not so great) courses I have played and continue to play the value of "position A" relative to position "B" is rarely more than a fifth of a shot over repeated play, and ususally less.

Paul Stephenson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2007, 12:13:49 PM »


I am also unsure how this has any relevance to the topic.  Good players for the past 100 years have been able to put significant backspin on the ball, whether playing right to left or left to right.



What about from out of the rough?

That is what strikes me.  A player can now aim out into the rough to gain an advantage due to a better angle and still have the ability to stop the ball.

Rich Goodale

Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2007, 03:53:53 PM »
Good point, Paul.  This problem, however, goes back 20+ years to Calcavecchia, square grooves, etc., does it not?  Maybe even farther,m in fact.  A real anecdote which relates to the original question:

I followed Nicklaus and Watson in a Crosby c. 1980, and was surprised to see both of them drive into the right hand rough on a right-left dogleg, until I walked down to their balls, which were no more than a couple of yards apart, and saw that the pin was back left and they were both n Position A.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2007, 09:00:50 PM »

Pat, Nicklaus never could be said to have "popularised" the high cut, as he was the only one who could do it (and even today, few can do it with regularity and precision)!

Rich, he demonstrated that you could attack difficult pins with long irons if you had a high enough trajectory.

To deny Nicklaus's impact on the play of shots (trajectory and flight) is to rewrite history.

Hogan played prior to the saturating exposure provided by TV and was deemed an anomaly, a freak who achieved unique ball flight by excessive practicing.
[/color]

I am also unsure how this has any relevance to the topic.  Good players for the past 100 years have been able to put significant backspin on the ball, whether playing right to left or left to right.

That's not true.
Long irons, hit with a draw or hook weren't prone to stopping quickly.  In addition, most golfers were hitting 3 and 4 woods, while Nicklaus was hitting HIGH long irons with a cut and stopping them on a dime, something those playing woods and long irons with a draw couldn't do.
[/color]

Also, there have always been choices as to shifts in strategy off the tee depending on hole position, but they were, are and always will be highly subtle, rather than SUBSTANTIVE.  

Historically, the draw was THE shot off the tee, especially prior to automated irrigation systems.  Much of the world of architecture was interfaced with by right to left ball flight from the tee and from the fairway.

You may recall Lee Trevino stating that he could NEVER fare well at ANGC because it favored a draw off the tee and with a large number of approach shots.
[/color]

On the great (and even not so great) courses I have played and continue to play the value of "position A" relative to position "B" is rarely more than a fifth of a shot over repeated play, and ususally less.

How would you evaluate play on the 7th at NGLA based on hole location ?

Listed below is my original post. ;D


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the most recent edition of "Golfweek" Brad Klein touched upon an interesting point.

The effect and value of hole location on playing strategy.

On what holes, on which courses, does the varied location of the hole substantively alter the playing strategy ?

I would submit that the "template" holes provided this diversity on par 3's, such as the Redan, Biarritz and Eden, and to a lesser degree on the Short, despite the fact that par 3's tend to be strictly target golf.

On par 5's and par 4's, the location of the hole on The Road Hole green would seem to substantively affect play on the second and approach shot, and even the recovery shot.

Specifically, which holes, on which golf course have their play substantively altered by the location of the cup ?

Tangentially, has the more aerial nature of ball flight somewhat muted the intended effect ?

Rich Goodale

Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2007, 12:32:40 AM »
Pat

You can attack a difficult pin position with a high draw just as well as with a high fade.  The only difference, to paraphrase a famous Trevinoism, is that you can talk to a fade but not to a draw.  Just how did Jack attack those difficult left hand pin positions, anyway?  You second green thingy only relates to Jack's extreme length, not the issue at hand.

I agree about draws off the tee (still the shot du jour of the good but relatively short player).  The best players, however, will hit high cut drives on fast and firm courses, as the importance of accuracy increases geometrically the faster and firmer the course becomes.

Vis a vis NGLA #7, all I remember of it on my one play there was hacking the ball around and getting a fairly boring 5, which was a "par" on the card.  I suppose if you wanted/needed to get a 4 on the hole, positioning off the tee would be critical, but 5's are there for the picking for anybody who can get the ball airborne.

Cheers for now.

Rich

Patrick_Mucci

Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2007, 12:51:00 AM »
Rich,

Since you owe me a dinner based on the outcome of the Notre Dame vs Stanford game, I'm willing to go double or nothing.

Rumor has it that you're crossing the pond this summer.

I'd love to get you out to NGLA to test your "easy" par theory on # 7, especially when it's a little F&F.  Hopefully the wind will co-operate, but, it's a go with no wind.

Let me have the hole cut front right and let's have you play the hole 10 times.

As a second bet, I'll put you 10-30 yards from the green in two and bet you on 5.

If you average 5 or less, we're even, but, I'll buy dinner.
Average more than 5 and I get another free meal, which, I'll give to SPDB if he's available.

Rich Goodale

Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2007, 01:22:56 AM »
Pat

If you would deign to read your e-mail, you will know that my presence in the USA next July is no rumour.

As to NGLA, I'll need to convince my 10-year old travelling companion that it is worth her while to drive for two hours just to see yet another golf course.  Are there any "Swim with Dolphins" opportunities or Shopping Malls in the vicinity?

As for that bet, you are on, but as you have never seen me and my vintage 1985 Tom Watson Ram lob wedge do its magic, feel free to withdraw your proposed wager at any time.  I can play that club just like a ringin' a bell.  I might even take it to my pro and put the grooves back on/in it, but that would just make the short game too simple for me, and the wager a slam dunk....

As I said in one of my previous e-mails, well done Domers.  If we had held on, we could have had the Stanford trifecta--USC, ND and Cal.  Welcome to the non-BCS world of lowered expectations!

Rich

Patrick_Mucci

Re:SUBSTANTIVE shifts in strategy (play)
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2007, 09:08:24 PM »
Pat

If you would deign to read your e-mail, you will know that my presence in the USA next July is no rumour.

I'm sure that I read it.
Remembering it is another matter.
[/color]

As to NGLA, I'll need to convince my 10-year old travelling companion that it is worth her while to drive for two hours just to see yet another golf course.  Are there any "Swim with Dolphins" opportunities or Shopping Malls in the vicinity?

As for that bet, you are on, but as you have never seen me and my vintage 1985 Tom Watson Ram lob wedge do its magic, feel free to withdraw your proposed wager at any time.  I can play that club just like a ringin' a bell.  I might even take it to my pro and put the grooves back on/in it, but that would just make the short game too simple for me, and the wager a slam dunk....

In that case ..... would you allow me to double my bet ?

In fact, let's make  playing that lob wedge a condition of the bet.  There's nothing like watching a golfer with his lob wedge in hand, on super tight turf, 20 yards from a sliver of a green, with deep bunkers long, seeing his golfing life flash before his eyes as he prepares to plan his shot, realizing that he's chosen the wrong club and has absolutely NO chance of getting on the green, and the high probability that he'll be blading that baby and just hoping that it lands in the bunker.

Those thoughts usually lead to chill dips, followed by blades. ;D

I may offer 2-1 or 4-1 odds on that shot.

And, should you elect to play far away from the hole, to the midsection of the green, putting back into that narrow neck is nerve racking on those fast, fast and firm greens.

If you promise to use that lob wedge I may pay for your daughter to take a teen tour, knowing how good of investment you will be ;D  

As I said in one of my previous e-mails, well done Domers.  If we had held on, we could have had the Stanford trifecta--USC, ND and Cal.  Welcome to the non-BCS world of lowered expectations !

ND was 2-8 my freshman year, so, I"ve been through it before.  ND and Stanford will be fine.  Remember, their scholarship athletes actually attend class and graduate.
And, they don't major in Dance.


« Last Edit: December 07, 2007, 09:09:47 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

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