[Greg Clark]

How many new private courses are even being built with a 25k or less initiation fee?  Are they a rarity compared to the high initiation new clubs?

[Tom_Doak]

Greg:

I was going to ask the same question.  The only private clubs I've heard of lately with an initiation below $25,000 (in the USA) are clubs that are desperately struggling to attract members.  Low-priced memberships aren't in anybody's business plan.

In fact, to have $25,000 memberships you'd have to have at least 400 members unless you are building on sand in an area of low-priced real estate, or they are willing to go without a clubhouse.

[John Kirk]

I was surprised that The Madison Club in La Quinta only finished 9th in the best new megaproject category.  It is clear to me the owners (Discovery Land) pulled out all the stops in order to make this project special, and I'm certain they are very disappointed in the results.

What does this say about the modern golf rankings?  Shadow Creek is very similar in theory.  Take a flat piece of desert, give Tom Fazio an unlimited budget, and allow him to create the best possible manufactured course.  Shadow Creek debuted in Golf Digest's top 10 courses in America in 1991 or so, and here The Madison Club is 9th best new private in 2007.

I have never seen Shadow Creek.  I toured The Madison Club, and though it is far from my style of course, it has some fine features.  It's really big and wide, with undulation and hazards everywhere, not to mention immaculate playing conditions.  The sand bunkers are quite odd looking, excessively ornate.  They would be a bitch to maintain.  Also, the course should be more walkable.  There are a couple of long green to tee gaps, probably moving from one street to the next.

1.  Is Tom Fazio losing his touch?  Is Madison too stylish, too ornate?  

2.  Are the tastes of Golf Digest's raters changing?  Now that Shadow Creek has been established as the quintessential manufactured parkland course, are other efforts considered superfluous?  Mr. Fazio is still getting excellent reviews for his designs in naturally compelling environments.

3.  Is competition much tougher than it used to be?  I once again make my case for the high quality of new golf courses.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

I have not seen The Madison Club yet.

Shadow Creek was a big success largely because of Steve Wynn's enthusiasm for the project.  He brought a vision of what he wanted, and he brought a lot of guys with expertise (on water features, landscaping, etc.) into the project to assist.  He also got Tom Fazio's complete attention; he probably got more time and thought out of his architect than any client since.

I don't think the developer of The Madison Club did all that.  Discovery has their formula down pretty pat and they've done a ton of courses with Fazio already ... hard to imagine that the next in line is going to yield a spectacular result, especially on a flat site.

I don't remember what Shadow Creek's competition was in the Best New category, but that was before there were lots of developers finding great property for architects to work on.  (Hmm ... 1992 ... my only project was Black Forest.)  It's a different picture now.

[PCCraig]

Hi Paul,

The golf course is greatly improved. before it had a ton of awkward shots and little features that made you scratch your head. (Such as the small pond in the middle of the fairway and fronting the 11th green.) Rees softened up the place a little and made it feel much more modern.

Overall I like Bellerive, while it may be considered boring to others, I think it has a great flow to it. Also the set of 4 Par-3's are fantastic. #6 is the most famous of the bunch, but the two on the back are neat.

[John Kirk]

Shadow Creek was best new in 1990, followed by Sycamore Hills in Indiana.  Shadow Creek then followed that up with a very high debut in the 100 Greatest, probably 9th.  It is still ranked 27th.

1992 was the year that Pumpkin Ridge almost made a clean sweep.  Ghost Creek won best new public, and Witch Hollow finished second behind Atlantic for best new private.  A big spread in the magazine, complete with color photographs.  Ah, the glory days of years gone by.

[Greg Clark]

Tom,

That's pretty much what I suspected.  Thanks for the insight.

[Jeff Doerr]

VIRGINIA!

I'd call this a banner year for Virginia Public Golf...

Over $75
1. THE HIGHLAND COURSE AT PRIMLAND • Meadows of Dan, Va. • Yards 7,034 • Par 72 • Fee: $175 • Designers: Donald Steel and Martin Ebert • 276-222-3827 • primland.com

8. LAUREL HILL G.C. • Lorton, Va. • Yards 7,010 • Par 71 • Fee: $89 • Bill Love • 703-493-8849 • fairfaxcounty.gov/parks/golf/laurelhill

Under $75
1. SPRING CREEK G.C. • Gord Le, Va. • Yards 7,172 • Par 72 • Fee: $70 • Designer: Ed Carton • 540-832-0744 • springcreekgolfclub.com
 
4. THE MANOR RESORT G.C. • Farmville, Va. • Yards 7,214 • Par 72 • Fee: $49 • Rick Robbins • 434-392-2244 • themanorresort.com
 
6. BLUE RIDGE SHADOWS G.C. • Front Royal, Va. • Yards 7,302 • Par 72 • Fee: $72 • Tom Clark • 540-631-9661 • blueridgeshadows.com  

[Adam Clayman]

Didn't Pine Meadows win in 89' for publics?

[Jack_Marr]

1. SEBONACK G.C. • Southampton, N.Y. • Yards 7,481 • Par 72 • Designers: Jack Nicklaus and Tom Doak • Initiation Fee: $650,000-PLUS • sebonack.com


$650,000 - That's obscene.

[Jim Nugent]

1. SEBONACK G.C. • Southampton, N.Y. • Yards 7,481 • Par 72 • Designers: Jack Nicklaus and Tom Doak • Initiation Fee: $650,000-PLUS • sebonack.com


$650,000 - That's obscene.

Why?

[Jeff_Brauer]

1.  Is Tom Fazio losing his touch?  Is Madison too stylish, too ornate?  

2.  Are the tastes of Golf Digest's raters changing?  Now that Shadow Creek has been established as the quintessential manufactured parkland course, are other efforts considered superfluous?  Mr. Fazio is still getting excellent reviews for his designs in naturally compelling environments.

3.  Is competition much tougher than it used to be?  I once again make my case for the high quality of new golf courses.

Not sure I'm qualified to answer your questions, but I will generally say no, yes and yes!

The only "problem" Fazio has is exposure.  Human nature seeks out something new, and it may be hard for him to top his own style, and his own version of perfection at Shadow Creek.  He says he can build 200 top 100 courses (ignoring some obvious math issues) but if they are all similar, or even similarly good, I believe the raters tend to downgrade the product.

I don't think there is any question that GC raters tastes are changing.  They can read this web site and all the great golf design books, too! (Contrary to assertions by some GW raters that they can't read at all....... )

And, the rankings themselves do create more competition, since we all strive to place on that list.  And, while he only writes the finished article now, and is not in charge of voting, etc., Ron Whitten always tried to counter the trend of playing and voting for only the top dog courses, encouraging panelists to see and evaluate the work of all gca's.

[Jim Franklin]

As a GD guy, I try to get to the courses that will compete for the top spot (if at all possible), but I did not hear anything about The Madison Club until after the ballots were in. It is tough for a desert course because the ballots have to be in by the end of August and the list of candidates doesn't come out until April. I like making travel plans well in advance, and that does not give me enough time to get to the desert before the temps reach triple digits. Plus the competition was really strong this year.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

The bar has certainly risen in terms of clubs competing in the "best new private" category since the time of Shadow Creek. Many of the well-financed clubs have a solid understanding in how they wish to create, brand and market what their clubs are offering. In years past, many clubs at the tip-top simply marketed themselves regionally -- check out the Friday Weekend sectoin of the WSJ and you'll see plenty of places now advertising on a national level.

In regards to TF losing his touch. That's silly. The guy has won numerous awards (contrary to what the anti-TF folks often bark about on this site). I don't doubt different tastes are involved but TF still commands attention in the design world and plenty of deep pocket people still seek him out.

In regards to tastes changing. Who knows for sure? One can easily make a case that many different formulas are involved in terms of how the Digest "Best New" awardees are determined.

Clear, it's consensus driven and certain courses are located in areas of the USA where a number of panelists can get to play the respective candidates. Jim F makes a good point -- desert courses need to be played early in the process because a number of them close up shop for the long hot summer when plenty of members return home. But time they re-open in the early Fall the ballot deadline has come and passed.

[Tommy Williamsen]

As a GD guy, I try to get to the courses that will compete for the top spot (if at all possible), but I did not hear anything about The Madison Club until after the ballots were in. It is tough for a desert course because the ballots have to be in by the end of August and the list of candidates doesn't come out until April. I like making travel plans well in advance, and that does not give me enough time to get to the desert before the temps reach triple digits. Plus the competition was really strong this year.

I am also a GD guy.The competition was indeed strong, especially in the private category. I played a bunch of the new courses this year.  It seems to me that courses are getting better all the time.  Dismal River though not terribly strong it is good and it finished out of the money.  Even though there are fewer new courses being built it is still difficult to get the ten ratings needed for a course to qualify.  I received  numerous e-mails and a few phone calls asking to get to some course because ratings were needed.  Some of them were winners like the mentioned courses in VA.

[Matt_Ward]

I'd be curious to know if Dismal River even made the grade with a minimum of panelist visits. Mullen isn't exactly on the beaten trail.

Candidly, Dismal is very, very good in my book (with work to be carried out on #13 as one clear exception) and I played no less than a number of the other private layouts that finished in the money.

It's not at Sebonack level -- but it deserved a bit more critical attention. So be it.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Matt, when I was there the pro told me that there had been a bunch of guys who played it.  He bemoaned the fact, however, that some panelists played it in 2006 consequently they did not rated the course after the work that was done.  My wife played it with me and she fell in love with the place and course.  I was surprised the it didn't pass muster.

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

Let me just say this - I have played a good collection of Nicklaus courses over the years and Dismal River is easily among the very best Team Bear has done. When I see the other courses Jack has done which have won "best new" it simply reinforces to me that being selected is more akin to having the right lottery numbers.

I can make a listing out of courses that did not win or even place in the top ten and still are very solid first rate courses.

Tommy, even before the work was done -- the net collection of fine holes -- working in tandem with what the site offers --still makes for a superb course.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Tommy:

Let me just say this - I have played a good collection of Nicklaus courses over the years and Dismal River is easily among the very best Team Bear has done. When I see the other courses Jack has done which have won "best new" it simply reinforces to me that being selected is more akin to having the right lottery numbers.

I can make a listing out of courses that did not win or even place in the top ten and still are very solid first rate courses.

Tommy, even before the work was done -- the net collection of fine holes -- working in tandem with what the site offers --still makes for a superb course.

I agree whole heartedly.  I know some course that I was certain would do well and didn't even get mentioned.  I don't know all of the changes that went on at DR but when i played it (twice btw) I enjoyed it greatly.  I truly thought DR woould be in the top ten.. It certainly is one of JN's best.

[Adam Clayman]

Matt, I'm shocked you're not up-to-date on the already made changes at DR. Especially 13.

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

I got to have soooooooooome time with the wife !

P.S. The changes at DR were not likely the issue that kept the course from being mentioned. Like I said, there are plenty of stellar courses that were not chosen -- some of which even resurfaced into the top state and top 100 listings.

[Rick Shefchik]

a wtf bunker at Madison Club (picture from their promo video):

From this promo photo, it's pretty clear that the Madison Club wants to assure prospective members that they'll get all the free tees they want in exchange for their undisclosed initiation fee.

[Adam Clayman]

Matt, The changes were discussed in this forum. 13 greens softened and the 13th hole widened and shortened, significantly, on both counts.

For some reason, I woulda thought it qualified for 2006. But, if as you say, the requisite number of panelists may not have made the journey.

[Kirk Gill]

I only played one new private that opened in 2007 - a course called Ravenna just southwest of Denver. A Jay Morrish course. Did any of you magazine panelists even play it? Not sure that it could keep up with the likes of Sebonack or CGC, but I'd be interested in the opinions of those who rank.

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

Thanks for the info and I do remember the thread / re: DR changes, etc, etc.

Frankly, while I didn't hate the "old" 13th hole -- the new improvements likely have added to the playability dimension.

What's really funny about DR is that Team Nicklaus used a number of the same ideas / features you see with Sebonack. How people can say the LI course is thaaaaaaaaaaat much further ahead of DR is very odd and somewhat amusing.

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