News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.

Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down

Matt_Ward

Great Golf on So-So Sites
« on: December 04, 2007, 10:52:04 AM »
I posted the title of this thread because if one really thinks about it the great golf designs are almost always on superb sites. Sites that only further the design ingredients and heighten the senses with the on and off-course eye-elements.

However ...

If one had to name great courses on so-so or simply ho-hum sites I wonder how many courses could really make the grade as A+ layouts.

My first choice would be Winged Foot / West. The land site is really tame when compared to other layouts located in Westchester County but the overall mixture of rich details provided by Tillinghast is front and center there.

For me the concept of land is no less than 60% of the equation of any courses's overall standing. For a course to still be special when the land site is far less than compelling is very difficult to to overcome. WF / West does that very well.

For an overseas choice I would have to name Royal St. Georges and Carnoustie. Both have mediocre sites but the overall richness in the design details is alive and well.

Be curious to what others may come to mind.
Logged

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2007, 10:54:19 AM »
Matt,
two words:
Muir
Field

Auld Watter Meadie. Probably the BEST use of the WORST site I can think of.

 ;D

FBD.
Logged
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Matt_Ward

Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2007, 11:00:31 AM »
Martin Glynn Bonnar:

Do you really believe the land quality -- not the architectural elements -- of Muirfield is less than what you get when playing Carnoustie and RSG ?

I can remember driving into Carnoustie and RSG and wondering what the hell are we doing here ? ;D

I didn't say that when the round concluded though. ;)
Logged

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2007, 11:04:36 AM »
Muirfield, indeed.  Hoylake, perhaps
Logged
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2007, 11:17:03 AM »
I agree with Muirfield and Winged Foot West.  For a lesser known (with the exception of a few individuals on this site) course that makes a lot out of very little, it's Golf de St. Germain just west of Paris.  This is the course that heightened my appreciation of H. S. Colt.  
Logged

C. Squier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2007, 11:17:15 AM »
Chicago Golf.
Logged

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2007, 11:22:23 AM »
Quote from: Matt_Ward on December 04, 2007, 10:52:04 AM

For an overseas choice I would have to name Royal St. Georges

 ???
Logged
Let's make GCA grate again!

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2007, 11:24:30 AM »
Matthew Aloysius Clementine Ward,
yes, I do!
Muirfield is the most fantastic golf course DESPITE the land it is situated upon.
Testimony to the fine Archies who created it, way more than any promise the land may have ever held.
Carnoustie has much more interest in what natural contours it possesses - DESPITE its design qualities, or lack thereof.

FBD.
Logged
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Matt_Ward

Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2007, 11:25:45 AM »
Tony:

I named RSG because the place didn't really inspire me from a land perspective. Yes, the dunes are quite impressive in spots but overall the sheer totality of the land was just not as solid as the actual design which I really enjoyed.

Gents:

From the States I would also Pinehurst #2. Few people really appreciate the design elements there.
Logged

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2007, 11:26:03 AM »
RSG a mediocre site??
Logged
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Ed Tilley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2007, 11:53:48 AM »
I thought RSG was one of the best sites I'd ever seen. Granted the entrance to the club is not promising and the first and last are on flat ground but the remaining 16 are on as prime links land as you're likely to see.













Logged

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2007, 12:33:44 PM »
Oakmont certainly got the most out of its site.  It has some slope but I am not sure that driving up to it 100 years ago I would have said, "let's build a golf course here."

I would add whistling Straights and Shadow Creek.  But given all the earth moving I'm not sure they qualify.  
Logged
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2007, 12:41:38 PM »
Logged
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Matt_Ward

Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2007, 02:28:23 PM »
Paul T, Ed T, Sean A, et al:

I made it a point to itemize the fact that there are dunes holes at RSG that I did like. But the overall nature of the property for me was not that inspiring or the best I have played of the links variety and I have played a fair sampling of layouts through UK and Ireland.

If you disagree so be it.

Keep in mind I also mentioned how impressed I was with the overall quality of the course when I finished. That's something that was left out in each of the replies.

Martin:

Help me out -- the "natural contours" of Carnoustie. Geeze, what degree of flatness is there? The design elements elevate what the land clearly lacks. I'll concede Muirfielf for the sake of argument -- but Carnoustie is a dead certain cinch for #2.

Logged

Paul_Turner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2007, 02:47:48 PM »
Matt

Specifically, what was wrong with the land at RSG?
Logged
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2007, 03:47:41 PM »
Ok...I've posted about this before, but the Rawls course in Lubbock has got to be mentioned whenever you are talking about a poor pre-construction site...

How about Crooked Stick in Indy? or Sawgrass?

Bart
Logged

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2007, 03:49:44 PM »
Shadow Creek
Whistling Straits
Bayonne
Logged
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2007, 03:50:28 PM »
Kingston Heath is a wonderful course on a pretty ordinary setting.  Be interested to see what others think in this part of the world.
Logged

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2007, 03:50:36 PM »
Ed, Those pictures make me want to cry. Just how perfect some of the grounds on which this sport is played upon.

Do you have a photo of the Maiden from it's original tee which was short left of the previous 4th green? Oh, please do tell me you do!
Logged

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2007, 03:52:01 PM »
Quote from: cary lichtenstein on December 04, 2007, 03:49:44 PM
Shadow Creek
Whistling Straits
Bayonne


Hey Cary:

Why Whistling Straits....it sits right on beautiful Lake Michigan..what is so poor about this site?

Bart
Logged

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2007, 04:00:37 PM »
from a swamp to TPC at Sawgrass....
Logged

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2007, 04:10:37 PM »
Matt, if you just admit that you might have made a mistake by suggesting RSG is on a so-so the boys from that side of the pond will be able to get some sleep tonight...remember, they're going down shortly...it won't kill you to concede just this one point...you bit off more than you could chew, don't you think?
Logged

Greg Krueger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2007, 04:14:35 PM »
Not that it really qualifies as a "Great" golf course but
my nominee would be Royal Dublin. Very ordinary property.
Logged

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2007, 04:17:39 PM »
Quote from: Ash Towe on December 04, 2007, 03:50:28 PM
Kingston Heath is a wonderful course on a pretty ordinary setting.  Be interested to see what others think in this part of the world.

Ash,

I only played Kingston Heath once, and there is no questioning its quality...and there really isn't much going on over the land either, is there? Good call. I also played Commonwealth and Yarra Yarra, is it generally accepted that KH is a much better golf course than either of those? Do they also have slightly better land?
Logged

Jimmy Muratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Great Golf on So-So Sites
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2007, 04:22:20 PM »
I don't think any land that has a sandy soil can really qualify as "so-so land".  It has so many advantages over other types of soil that even a pretty featureless site can produce wonderful playing characteristics.  

Now, it's obviously not a given that a sandy site equals a great golf course.  But, if given the choice, not man people would choose a flat clay site over a flat sandy site.  
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up