[Big_B]

82 (45 on the front and 37 on the back).  The 45 included 2 doubles (one my fault with a bonehead shot the cost me) and a triple.  The other double and the triple were caused by sand traps with very little sand.  I usually avoid the bunkers.

Thanks.

Big B;

With all of the width at Twisted Dune, do you mind if I ask what you shot?  

I'm not trying to be a smartass, but simply pointing out that holes you complain about, such as the first, really require that you find the preferred side of the fairway for the best angle in, particularly to certain hole locations.  For example, anything right of center on the first hole (and the fairway tilts towards the right) leaves you with a blind shot over a deep fronting bunker, hardly a warm greeting.

Beyond that, the open site near the ocean gets a lot of high winds, and virtually requires a certain width (especially with the high native grasses on the dunes) to be playable in difficult weather.  

As far as the bunkers, I haven't seen a problem.  Besides, under the rules of golf, they are defined as "hazards".  Expectations of some type of perfectly maintained lie and suitable stance are one of the reasons that golf has lost much of its strategy over the years.  If they are a tough recovery, they should be avoided by players of all levels, don't you think?  

[Mike_Cirba]

Big B;

Despite some missteps, that's a nice round.  Actually, that's one of the things I really enjoy about TD...it's not tough to make costly mistakes through "over-reaching", and it would be a fun match-play course for that very reason.  

Posting a decent medal score requires a bit of planning, caution, and strategy.  

I think you'll find it a slightly different course each time you play it, as well, and I also believe that it's one that will reveal different ways to play it each time.....I think it's worthy of study for that very reason, and I'm glad to hear you'll be coming back often.  

I'm very high on it, obviously, simply because I've played virtually every public course in NJ and I think it ranks highest on my ultimate criteria....FUN.    

[Matt_Ward]

Big B:

Appreciate your comments. A few responses.

Scotland Run's front nine is not in the same category with TD's front side. The 1st at Scotland Run is nothing more than a non-descript opening hole. The 2nd is clearly one of the better ones -- no doubt -- especially with the pin on the left green! But what about the large green at the short par-3 4th! I mean if you can't hit that green something big time is very wrong. Should a green of such short distance be so large?

The rest of the holes are good but top five in Jersey? No way!

The back side is where Scotland Run picks up the pace considerably and I think you could make an argument that it may be even-up with TD. Love to sit in on that 19th hole discussion but I'd still give the nod to TD. I do concur big time with you about the quality of the 14th hole -- one of Jersey's best public holes without doubt.

You say wide fairways at TD and my counter to that is positioning is still prevalent among all the fairway. Give you an example -- take the 5th hole. If you want to hit a 3-wood or 1-iron or so you can play out to the right and be safe. When the pin is tucked right you only increase the demands on your approach. The bold play is to take driver down the left side and open up the green to all locations. The issue? Don't overcook it left because sand and deep grass awaits. I can go on with a number of other holes to make similar type points.

In the ratings article the issue about the lack of quality sand is indeed mentioned and from what was told to me by Tom McCarthy, the GM for the club, there will be USGA spec sand in these area very shortly. But let's understand that a hazard is indeed a HAZARD. It is not suppose to be user friendly in all situations. We also mentioned the lack of quality sand at NJ National.

I would also add that if you played The Ocean Course at Kiawah you would find similar difficulties with varied lies in and around the putting surfaces similar to TD. There is no such a thing of "guaranteed" lies when you hit into hazards or the high grass that encircles many of the greens. The thinking should have been done BEFORE not after you land there!

The issue for any player at TD is not to attempt to get too frisky. I hit the ball a decent ways off the tee and everytime I'm at TD I have to catch myself from just bombing away without thinking which side of the fairway affords the best angle.

Let me also mention one aspect you didn't -- the wind. It's always a factor at TD and on some occasions calls for great dexterity to play a wide variety of shots. In addition, new championship tees are planned for a variety of holes and one is being built now at the 9th -- which turns this easy hole into a more demanding one for the longer hitters.

Please help me understand one thing -- what would your top ten be? The top five mentioned in Jersey Golfer are clearly one notch above the next grouping of five courses. I don't know how many times you've played the courses on the list but I know I've seen all of them and countless others on a number of occasions as well as some of our other staff people.

One last note -- I have great respect for Stephen Kay and just finished playing his recent new layout -- McCullough's Emerald Golf Links in Egg Harbor. Wonderful and imaginative routing and a course that doesn't take two Visa cards to play. I'll be seeing it again later this year before writing a review in Jersey Golfer. Lots of interesting stuff at the course mixed with some pedestrian. The replica of the famed Lido hole is indeed a sight to see!

Let me also mention Stephen's work at The Architect's is also solid unfortunately the daily preparation of the layout runs counter to the firm and fast concepts of the architects they have sought to pattern the holes after. If that condition can change then the standing of the course will likely go up.

One last note -- wide fairways bring into play a range of choices. I get very bored with extremely narrow fairways that simply say -- only hit this club and play it safe. The element of risk and reward is bastardized in my mind when I see this. Ditto when too many trees are on the line of play. This is what one sees at Crystal Springs and it's one of the chief reasons why the course dropped like a Nasdaq stock. Too penal and too unforgiving on even the slightest error.

Let's also keep in mind we are talking about p-u-b-l-i-c golf. The management needs to keep people moving without absurd searches for lost balls and other side adventures.

Hope what I have provided helps. Clearly, South Jersey is making it's mark in a rather bold way with TD, BHP / East, Pine Hill, Scotland Run and Sand Barrens within the top 9. Who would have thought such a thing 10-15 years ago.

[Paul_Turner]

I've only walked the front 9 of New Jersey National and it was unappealing; surprised to see it so high, unless the back 9 is super.  Some boring slog holes uphill (2,3(approach),9) and a couple of boring drop shots at the par 3s (4,7?).  Looked like the course was guaranteed to be soft too.

The 10th looked ridiculously overshaped.

Much preferred the work by Smyers at Royce Brook and Blue Heron.

[archie struthers]

Obviously we are honored by the nice accolades Twisted Dune has received from many of you! Please appreciate that in many ways it is still a work in progress. However, I am fairly adamant that the bunker sand is fine and getting better. Our fine super Steve Lane has changed out some of the bad silty sand, particularly greenside, with better, but indigenous!!!! material. Don't look for perfect lies in every bunker at Twisted, they are indeed hazards. Actually firm sand with good technique is a better surface by far.

Look for some new tees, better conditions and firmer,faster surfaces in 2003, and thanks for caring, one way or the other!!!

Pretty hard to rate golf courses or beautiful women, they all have interesting features, and good days & bad days.

[Matt_Ward]

Paul Turner:

Do yourself a big favor and see all of NJ National before making any declarative judgements on its overall merits. Walking a course is Ok but until you've played shots the differences in perspective can be enormous.

The putting surfaces are very challenging in many spots and if you get a little frisky you get burned. Also, the pins can be placed in some difficult spots to get close to so it's a course that can have major contrasts depending upon where the pin is located.

I do agree with you on the two drop-shot par-3's on the front but on the back side you have two very strong holes. Also, the par-5's are well done throughout the course -- lots of risk and reward options throughout. You mention uphill slogs at the 2nd, 3rd and 9th. What's wrong with uphill challenging holes. I'm kind of confused -- you say the course doesn't have any real meat, but then just as quickly point out the "slog" on the others. The 9th is a very solid mid-length par-4 with a very demanding green.  

You say ... "The 10th looked ridiculously overshaped." It might be but so what? I can name plenty of holes on any of the courses rated with no less a situation. If there's any issue about the 10th it's the proximity of the houses on the left side of the hole. I can remember playing the course for the first time in '97 and there weren't any there then. Play the hole and you will see the demands are there. I like the hole because it is so straightforward. The green is also a challenging target and if you miss to either side the ability to recover can be taxing.

The rest of the back nine significantly elevates the challenge. You better score early because the back isn't going to yield much unless you're playing well.

You also have one of the best, if not the best mid-length par-4 in all of public golf in New Jersey in my opinion. The 17th at NJ National is 396 yards, plays uphill and features a carry over unkept territory. From the back tee the distance to carry is no less than 230-240 yards. The approach is also a treat. You must play a high approach to a green that is protected fiercely by a front bunker that is DEEP.

I do agree that the courses rated 6th through 10th are very close in their overall elements. Each clearly has weaknesses. I would like to know what your top ten is. Many thanks ...

P.S. One last item -- the new superintendent has conditions much improved and Paul it's not S-O-F-T. Given the rolling terrain it makes for interesting stuff.

[tmccarro]

Good list...have played a number of courses on the list and while Ballyowen is a great track my favorite is Knoll West.  Its a great track and you need to bring your golf game or it will be a loooooong day.  Par 70 and 6800 yards from the tips.  A little forgiving off the tee but it more than makes up for it with the accuracy needed for your 2nd shots.  If your not on the right side of the greens 3 putts are a common thing.

I'm actually shocked Sunset made this list.  I think its sister courses up in Flanders (White/Blue) is a much better course.

[Paul_Turner]

Matt

I haven't played enough of the top NJ public courses to have a top 10; plenty of munis which wouldn't make any "top" list  The Knoll has easily the best greens of those that I have mentioned.

I forgot to mention the 6th, which has another dullish uphill approach, similar to 2 and 3.  

With these similar shots, the front nine just didn't have much variety or many options; the hazards are nearly all wing hazards and so the player is just asked to hit it long and straight.  There's very little temptation to flirt with the hazards; with the possible exception of the 8th.  

Very little ground game option too, even if the course did play firm.  You can run the ball in on the 10th and 6th, but the fairway leading up to the greens have little slope or contour, so these are pretty dull shots too.

I probably won't play the whole course simply because I don't think it looks to be good value for money.

[Mike_Sweeney]

I am playing Shoregate for the first time next Monday. I have now heard mixed results. Does it have any chance at making this list?

[Tom_Egan]

Matt Ward:

New Jersey National in Basking Ridge.  I moved away from Morristown about 10 years ago and the only course I know of in Basking Ridge was Pennbrook, or something like that.  What, if anything, is the relationship between the two courses?

[Matt_Ward]

Mike Sweeney:

Shoregate was not considered because of a stipulation that all courses must have been opened for one complete season. There are plenty of opinions on the course and I'd be most interested in getting your feedback after you play it.

Tom Egan:

Your memory serves you right -- Penbrook is in Basking Ridge and is now called Basking Ridge CC. The best thing about the course, as I'm sure you remember, was its close location to the Great Swamp Refuge. There are literally billions of mosquitos in that area and when you have a hazy and cloudy type day you feel like all of them are with you that day!

As far as NJ National and Basking Ridge CC is concerned there is no relationship between the two.

Paul Turner:

You say no ground game at NJ National -- I wonder were you expecting ground game situations akin to The Old Course? Plenty of Jersey courses are not compatible to ground game options in a numbe of holes but the strategic merits of those holes is still good.

You mention the uphill 6th at NJ National. Long hitters can attempt to cut the corner if they dare, but you can avoid that and play to the left of this dog-leg right. The uphill shot requires you to gauge correctly the distance because the further away you are with your approach the more demanding the putt becomes.

Since you have not played the course -- only walked the front side -- I think you're being a bit premature in writing the course off. I'll be the first to admit that the fees there are not cheap but the qualities the course presents should not be so easily diminished.

Lastly, I completely agree with you regarding Knoll / West. George Bahto will be involved with restoring all of the charms of the facility and his work begins this Fall. The Knoll / West needs this work because pelnty of the bunkers have moved away from their original pedigree by Charles Banks.

I also believe th efirst three holes at The Knoll / West are among the best starting trio you can play among public courses in the Garden State. And, how can one forget the glories of the home hole! When George Bahto completes the work the qualities of The Knoll / West will once again challenge for top ten consideration and maybe move among the very best. We shall see ...

[Ben Hogan NJ]

Mike-
Did you happen to see the recent Top 100 You Can Play by Golf Magazine that put PH at #31?  I'm sure you have some reason why this national publication is wrong (like me) why PH is such a fine daily fee golf course, but I would love to hear your opinion on that.  Clearly, I'm not the only one who thinks PH is as good as it is.  

As far as TD, I have not played it but I have also heard that the fairways are ridiculously large.  All in all, credible people have told me it is a great track, but they all ranked it lower than Scotland Run and Pine Hill too.  

I cannot give my own account, but just passing that on to further the discussion.

[Paul_Turner]

Paul Turner:

You say no ground game at NJ National -- I wonder were you expecting ground game situations akin to The Old Course? Plenty of Jersey courses are not compatible to ground game options in a numbe of holes but the strategic merits of those holes is still good.

You mention the uphill 6th at NJ National. Long hitters can attempt to cut the corner if they dare, but you can avoid that and play to the left of this dog-leg right. The uphill shot requires you to gauge correctly the distance because the further away you are with your approach the more demanding the putt becomes.

Since you have not played the course -- only walked the front side -- I think you're being a bit premature in writing the course off. I'll be the first to admit that the fees there are not cheap but the qualities the course presents should not be so easily diminished.

Lastly, I completely agree with you regarding Knoll / West. George Bahto will be involved with restoring all of the charms of the facility and his work begins this Fall. The Knoll / West needs this work because pelnty of the bunkers have moved away from their original pedigree by Charles Banks.

I also believe th efirst three holes at The Knoll / West are among the best starting trio you can play among public courses in the Garden State. And, how can one forget the glories of the home hole! When George Bahto completes the work the qualities of The Knoll / West will once again challenge for top ten consideration and maybe move among the very best. We shall see ...

Matt

You're right, I shouldn't right off the course totally.  But it's difficult to cough up 2-3 times the Knoll green fee for a course which hasn't shown me nearly as interesting holes on the first 10 I walked.

Apart from the 17th, which you clearly like, do you think that NJ National has any shots that you relish playing?  Shots that really draw you back to try and perfect?  I think The Knoll has several of these and I couldn't find one in 10 holes at NJ National- just some difficult shots that were rather standard fare.

Regarding the ground game.  No, it doesn't have to be as sophisticated as St Andrews or other links.  I can think of plenty of inland course where the designer has really thought about the area immediately in front of the green to provide run up shots of great interest.  It's an aspect that seems to be lost on many modern designs.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ben Hogan NJ;

Pine Hill has to stand as one of the most disappointing courses I've played.  Yes, it's pretty, it's got lovely property, and it's got views of the Philly skyline.  

Can you explain to me the strategy of any one hole at Pine Hill, or better yet, describe for me which of the greens have any interest whatsoever beyond the first one?  

Fazio put little sandy areas 100 yards off the tee as his tip of the hat to PV, which are simply horrendous bunkering.  His fairways concave everything in to the center, and his greens are completely flaccid.  

Yes, it's longish, and several holes play challengingly, but where is the interest?  Where is the variety and strategy?  

We looked real hard and didn't find much, a couple of good holes with skyline greens like 9 & 18, and 17 is real good as is 7 on the front nine.    

My friend and I had hoped for something as good as World Woods Pine Barrens, only on better land.  Unfortunately, PH is not half the course that Fazio's florida effort is.

[Ben_Hogan_NJ]

Mike-
What about #3, 6, 15 in addition to the ones you pointed out?

As I have pointed out before, sand was thrown in places for effect as he did not try to make this like PV.  If he made PH that difficult, the general public would never finish the round.  It is an extremely challenging course with reasonable fairways and a need for an accurate long tee shot on many holes.  

May I ask what tees you played it from and what you shot?

[stat_man]

First off, I'm a newbie here, drawn in by the SI article.   Looks good from my quick browsing.

I much prefer to walk the course, even if I have to pay a cart fee to do so...and this influences my opinions on a course.   Royce Brook West is a nice track, but the walking policy is awful...I played two weeks ago and was assured I could pay my $80 but walk after 2 on a Friday...the starter informed me that a cart was mandatory, and it took significant discussion I finally had him agree to let me walk.  (I had to threaten to go in for a refund unless they let me walk before they agreed).  I'd like to see courses get a few extra points (like in Golf D) if they allow walking.

I'd also like to give a shout out to Beaver Brook in Clinton.   Yes the opening 2 holes and closing 2 holes (all parallel Par 5's) are boring, but the other 14 holes are quite good with some exceptional Par 4's springled in (#'s 3, 6, 11, 13 and 15 are all quite nice).   Plus, they have allowed me to walk without any problems (you do have to pay for the cart).

[tmccarro]

Tom,

No relation.  NJN was built in The Hills complex right off 287 at the bottom of the hill.  It was built about about 5 years ago so it wasn't there when you were.


  

Matt Ward:

New Jersey National in Basking Ridge.  I moved away from Morristown about 10 years ago and the only course I know of in Basking Ridge was Pennbrook, or something like that.  What, if anything, is the relationship between the two courses?

[Mike_Cirba]

Ben Hogan NJ;

While I'm waiting for your answers to my questions on strategy and lack of interesting greens at Pine Hill, I thought I'd answer some of your followups, particularly about holes 3, 6, & 15.

Hole 3 is a long, downhill par four playing about 462 from the tips.  After the drive over 50 yard "show sand" bunkers, the player has to contend with the really big bunker out on the right side of the drive.  Ironically, if one challenges that bunker successfully, they are left with a blind second shot.  Sort of "anti-strategy" if you will.  The way to play the hole is with a long drive up the open left side, followed by a long approach to a flattish green that has a foreshortened bunker left, and another one closer to the green and permits the run-up approach if conditions are firm enough.  Beautiful to look at, not that much interest in playing, however.

 

The 6th plays 410 yards from the tips to a wide fairway, once again over some very short sandy waste, and there are a series of bunkers along the left (outside) on this slight dogleg right.  If one challenges those bunkers, they are mistaken, because that will leave an approach over the bunker guarding the front left of the green.  There is no reason to do anything from the tee but favor the center to right hand side, and then hit a short iron approach to an slightly-elevated, flat green.



15 is sort of tougher to describe, as the picture doesn't add much to the discussion.  It IS a very long (471, par four), tough hole, playing back into the prevailing wind.  From the tee, one needs to drive over a pond and the hole bends sharply to the right at about 300 or so yards from the tee. There are bunkers and thick woods down the right hand side.  

Given those constraints, it's a really low percentage shot to attempt to flirt with the right and cut off any of the dogleg or otherwise shorten the hole.  

Instead, the smart play is a drive to the center or left of center, leaving a long approach to a green with bunkering along the left, which is more in play for the guy who doesn't quite make the turn with his drive.  The green is slightly elevated, fairly large, and relatively non-descript.

[Ben_Hogan_NJ]

Mike-
I'm glad you just described the strategy on these holes.  Not following your strategy on these holes usually results in very large number.  I am wondering why you fail to acknowledge the fact it placed very high on top 100 you can play or admit what you shot.  I have a feeling the course got the better of you and therefore you don't have great things to say about it because of your unpleasant experience.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ben Hogan NJ;

Those more familiar with me are probably having a good chuckle at your contention that I am dissing Pine Hill because of what I shot.  They've read my posts that were HIGHLY favorable of places like Sand Hills, Prarie Dunes, Twisted Dune, Fenway, etc., all of which had their way with me pretty well, and where the course records are safely unscathed by my visit.  

Score is not that important to me, to be frank.  When I was in my 20s, I used to play to a 2.3 index, and I played a lot of golf back then.  These days, I play to about a 9, but I never know who the hell is going to show up.  

What did I shoot at Pine Hill?  I don't know, to be honest, somewhere in the 80s if I was counting, but my playing companion and I were each playing a few balls at times per hole, just to try to find different options and strategies.  We were there to look at the golf course as rating panelists for Golfweek Magazine, and if I were to let my level of play affect my judgement of a course, I would certainly not be doing that job.  

Any of the GCA regulars who've played with me, and I've thankfully met quite a few, would be quick to tell you that although my game might be wildly erratic, I'm there to study golf course architecture first, have fun and companionship next, and the good and bad shots fade in to memory rather quickly.  

No one is paying me to play the game, and since I haven't heard your name at the top of the leaderboard in 40 years, I assume you have to work for a living, as well.  That's cool....but philosophically, the term "test of golf" is very overrated in my mind.  

What I described as "strategies" on those holes at Pine Hill seem pretty uni-dimensional, don't you think?  

[Matt_Ward]

Ben Hogan:

A couple of quick points.

National ratings are often influenced by people who play courses on a "one-time" basis only. What they glean from the "one-time" visit is all they have to go on.The Jersey Golfer ratings comes from people, myself included, who have seen and played the courses in question multiple times in different situations and weather conditions. We also assess courses from multiple tees and I specifically play all the candidates from maximum tee yardages as many will attest.

I don't assess a course on what I shot and I know Mike Cirba would not either but he can speak for himself. I'm a low handicap player and assessments are gleaned with different skill levels in mind.

Pine Hill is a lovely looking course -- no doubt. The land the course occupies is also dynamic. The question is where is the depth of strategic interest. I agree there are plenty of good holes -- i.e., the 7th, 9th, 10th, 17th, to name four. But, many of the greens are plain jane vanilla and really have little to offer on maximizing iron play and challenge those who miss greens with testing recoveries. Let's also not forget the two drop-shot par-3's on the back. Both are fairly pedestrian.

Let's also understand that a 5th place finish in Jersey Golfer is not as if we're saying the course is garbage. Far from it. The competition among Jersey layouts, particularly the first five, is very strong. But, please help me to understand how Pine Hill is a better overall course than the four that finished inf ront of it?

When people say TD has wide fairways I'll counter simply by saying this: so does ANGC and TOC. It's not the width of the fairways but the manner by which strategic options are engaged. You can have narrow fairways with hay on both sides and the strategic qualities are non-existent -- it's just simply hit to the center line on every hole and proceed from there. There's a word for that -- BORING!

stat man:

Jersey Golfer doesn't factor in whether carts are mandatory or not. The rating for Royce Brook / West was based just on the quality of the 18 holes there -- nothing more and nothing less.

Yes, I love to walk, but I don't believe adding or subtracting points for walking, as Digest does, really has nothing to do with the holes you'll be playing. For some it matters -- it doesn't for the publication I edit.

[THuckaby2]

Ben Hogan NJ;

Any of the GCA regulars who've played with me, and I've thankfully met quite a few, would be quick to tell you that although my game might be wildly erratic, I'm there to study golf course architecture first, have fun and companionship next, and the good and bad shots fade in to memory rather quickly.

I have indeed been fortunate to play quite a bit of golf with Mr. Cirba and that is a VERY accurate assessment of how he treats the game - which for my money makes for a very fun round!

As for the wildly erratic part... well... which of us ISN'T?  

TH

[Ben_Hogan_NJ]

Mike-
Glad you enjoy yourself out there all the time and it sounds like you are a good playing partner.  I guess we just differ on our opinions on the course.  I like to sit back and appreciate what Fazio did with such a diverse piece of land and the end product of his efforts.  I cannot understand what you and Matt have in for the driving range known as Twisted Dunes.  I hear nothing but mediocre things about it from everyone.  As I have said before, I have not played TD yet, but knowing many people (all ranges of golfers) who have played both TD and PH, TD doesn't compete on any level.

As far as critiquing the quality of Golf Magazine's list to Jersey Golfer's list, I find that a stretch.  Do you not think that Twisted Dunes wasn't rated by people who have played it (even just once) being in a resort location like it is?

I've never have even heard of Jersey Golfer let alone see it on the newstand so I don't think you can compare it to a respected publication such as Golf Magazine.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ben Hogan NJ;

I would certainly encourage you to make the trek to Twisted Dune, and believe you would enjoy it a great deal.

There have been a number of others on this site who have played either or both courses in question, and perhaps they can weigh in with their respective opinions, as well.

Interestingly, Pine Hill did not appear on Golf Digest's lists of "Best New Courses" opened last year, so it seems pretty strange that it suddenly appears on Golf's list of ALL publically-accessible courses in such a high position.  Based on some of the comments on that particular thread, it seems as though the regular, well-travelled, and knowledgable staff of "Golf" Magazine who do their regular "Top 100" ratings didn't even have a vote, unless they chose to do so online.  

[Big_B]

This bickering is worst than the aftermath of the 99 Ryder Cup.  We probably just wish we were out playing, whether it would be on Scotland Run, Twisted Dune or Pine Hill.

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