Then and now photo's

[Mike McGuire]

Here is an after photo with the before drawn over the top. A great example trees and mowing straightening out a dogleg. The two fairway bunkers NLE.

A friend of mine calls it UNDESIGN.

[Paul_Turner]

Maybe the toughest opening hole (to par) in England:  Meyrick Park (240 yds)



And a few more, from Meyrick, to compare then and now:
12th


8th


4th

[Mike_Cirba]

Paul,

Those pictures are astounding, and further proof that left to the devices of natural growth, benign maintenance, and lack of diligent oversight, golf courses tend to DEVOLVE, not EVOLVE.

This thread should be put into a slideshow and used to show greens committees that effects of time and growth on architecture, much like Gib Carpenter's recent wonderful article on Philly Cricket.

[Kalen Braley]

I think Pat really hit the nail on the head best.

Rising manual labor costs with the shift to machines to do the work.  The question in my mind is how can this be reversed?  Or can it even be reversed.  With many courses already being on a tight budget how can this be justifed?  Would most golfers even care if this was done and be willing to pony up the extra $ for it?  

As for the comment devolving, if anything its fits the basic law of entropy.  And if its easier to maintain flat oval bunkers, then perhaps saved dollars and lack of taking ownership on the part of manual labor are the culprits.  Would a manual labor guy making $10/hour really care about jaggedy bunkers and maintaing the courses character?

[David Stamm]

David, going back to the last page of the thread, you were correct in identifying the old photo as being a shot of #18 at Pasatiempo...but the missing building behind the hole isn't Marion Hollins's old house.  The building behind #18 is called the "Hollins House" in her honor, but her house is on Hollins Dr. (of course) near the 5th tee at Pasatiempo, house #33.  If you're waiting on the par three 5th, go to the back of the blue tees and look away from the hole, through the trees...the house across the street, just barely visible, was her home, built just after the course was completed in 1929.   And of course, her neighbor just down the street on Hollins Drive was Alister MacKenzie, whose home is visible from the 6th fairway.

Rob

My mistake Rob. I meant Hollins house. And I don my hat everytime I pass the good Dr's home when playing the 6th.
What was the original intent of the Hollins house?

[David Stamm]

I'd relax the standard a tad, though, and suggest that it would also be instructive to include aerial (then and now) photos, as well.

Aerials would be great. For the education of all and for reference purposes for the future, how about we relax the criteria to encourage more participation and put up then and nows whether they are your own photo's or not?

[David Stamm]

Maybe the toughest opening hole (to par) in England:  Meyrick Park (240 yds)



And a few more, from Meyrick, to compare then and now:
12th


8th


4th

Wonderful pics Paul! It's a shame that front left bunker on 12 is gone. It looked magnificent! It looks to me that it wouldn't be hard to put it back.

[Evan Fleisher]

Paul,

I'll take the THEN photos on all those holes...astounding transformation over time...and NOT for the better.

[James Bennett]

I saw some transitioning from old to new at Meadow Club last year.  It was a piece of computer work by Tully that would impress almost any Greens Committee.  The old picture gradually merged into the new picture.  Now, if only we can reverse that process.

James B

[rchesnut]

David, the Hollins House was designed as the clubhouse for Pasatiempo, and it included a formal dining room, a "19th Hole" bar and members lounge.  It opened in the fall of 1936, 7 years after the course itself opened and was the scene of a number of elegant dances and parties until the Depression finally caught up with Pasatiempo and Hollins.  Just two years after the new clubhouse opened, Hollins had to give up her home and she moved back to Monterey, and the clubhouse was sold.  As for MacKenzie, he never saw the clubhouse...he passed away in 1934.  And the golf course spiraled into the same period of neglect, thoughtless alterations and poor maintenance that Meyrick apparently went through...only in the last 10 years has Pasatiempo (with Tom Doak's help) really recovered from that period.  

For over 30 years, the clubhouse was used as a private residence, until  was sold back to Pasatiempo golf club in 1973 and renamed "Hollins House."   Today, the club runs the Hollins House as a wedding and banquet facility, as well as a public restaurant.

Sorry to digress from the original intent of the thread -- Paul, I was just blown away by the Meyrick photos...I'm not familiar with the course but it looked like a real gem in its day.  Fascinating (and sad) to see what's happened to it over time, and equally fascinating to think of all the other courses I've played that have suffered a similar fate over the years.  

Rob

[Andrew Mitchell]

Paul

Your superb photographs of Meyrick brought back many happy memories of childhood golf whilst on holiday in that area.  It must be 30 years or more since I played there last and I was even more ignorant of golf course architecture at that time than I am now!

The tree expansion and reduction/elimination of bunkers is alarming when comparing the photographs. Sadly modern day demands on maintenance budgets for municipal courses are likely to lead to such a result.
 
Has the first always been a par 3 or did I just play it as a par 4 in my junior days?

[David Stamm]

With the permission of Mr Spaulding, a few more then and nows. The LACC were the ones I used for the LACC thread.


Lake Arrowhead 7th, old routing, then.....




...and now, a little further




CPC 3rd then....




...and now, a little closer



CPC 11th then....



and now, a little further..



CPC 15th then...




and now...




CPC 16 then...




and now, closer and centered

 


LACC 8th then....




and now..




LACC 11th then...




and now...




LACC 7th then...




and now, with the angle further to the right




LACC 14th then...




and now...






More to follow.......

[Paul_Turner]

Thanks for the nice comments on Meyrick Park (Dunn/Colt)...I think the old bunker outlines are particularly obvious for the 4th and 12th...just been grassed over.

Meyrick is England's oldest muni and although I think it brings in a lot of cash to Bournemouth I doubt it will be restored!

How about the loss of width on Sunningdale Old's great 7th hole, again you can see the outlines of the two filled bunkers.

[JMorgan]

Great thread, David.  

Several pictures from this thread show how much more claustrophobic inland holes become with tree growth.  

Why don't more clubs limb the trees that crowd the fairways and approaches?  It's a simple question, I know.  But it's an easier and obvious solution to partial restoration when a course loses its "then-ness"; it doesn't cost much money and doesn't take much time; plus you get so much more for your money relative to other restorative efforts ... .  

[AndrewB]

How about the loss of width on Sunningdale Old's great 7th hole, again you can see the outlines of the two filled bunkers.

Thanks for the great photos of Sunningdale, Paul.  Do you have any idea why the bunkers were filled in and the trees were planted?

I've only played the hole once, so these comments may be a bit off.  The trees certainly make the drive more demanding by blocking a tee shot on the very left side of the fairway, forcing one choose to hug the right side or lay back a bit.  This puts more challenge in the drive and requires a bit more thought from the player on the tee.  But, from what I recall, the angle from the tee and right-to-left slope of the fairway requires you to aim your tee shot well right of where you think you should in order to end up in an ideal place.  Given that, the penalty of being farther back and having a poor angle might be enough for those that play down the left side.  I wonder if the trees add such a significant penalty that they put too much importance on the tee shot relative to the second shot.

[Jerry Kluger]

Those photos of the 18th at Riviera are incredible. Tommy pointed out how difficult the Kikuyu is yet they planted those trees on the right side of the fairway, and they must've done so simply to create a hazard as quickly as possible since they are ugly.  My recollection is that technology, etc., has allowed the tour players to hit very short clubs into 18 which has taken a whole bunch of strategy out of the hole - years ago players were really intimidated by that shot, but no more.