Sean,
I will be happy to email you the information when I have time to do so. I have posted them in the past, especially the quote from Flynn regarding using more fill to tie in his features with natural slopes such as Pocantico Hills. He did this because it looked more natural and because it was simpler and more cost effective to maintain over time. I promise to send it to you. He wrote specifically on this subject, I assure you.
Pat,
I don't feel like having such a distorted conversation with you. We know that the 7th at Shinnecock is an artificial green. What you fail to understand is that this is a one of a kind. He didn't build this green at every course. Come on, you're better than this.
As for the green at Lookout Mtn, I never said it should be built on grade. I said it could be lower profiled and closer to grade. Not on grade. That's a big difference you missed because of your mindset. You make me not want to discuss this any further. Your conclusions based on this error are thus incorrect.
Honestly, Pat, do you really think the Short hole is so unique to golf in terms of interest of periphery pins and central pins?
Yes.
I think it presents a clear and specific examination of the players skills, including his mind, short irons, recovery clubs and putter.
You are wrong. It is not unique in terms of offering interesting periphery and central pins. Plenty of other greens do as well. You didn't answer my question. As far as being a clear and specific examination. I will give you that but it is too clear and too specific resulting in a fun and challenging hole that has been seen and done elsewhere. There is nothing unique about a template, by definition. Sorry.
They built a lot of terrific short holes.
The 7th on the 4th nine at Montclair.
The 11th at Westhampton.
The 5th at Yale
The 6th at The Knoll
That is partly my point, Pat, except for the terrific part. Who needs a lot of the same artificial holes? They are not terrific to me. You think they are and I am very happy that you do.
Kyle,
The 9th at Huntingdon Valley is benched into a hillside. Flynn did this a lot. The Short hole is artificial on all sides. The 9th at HVCC is artificial in the area benched into the hillside. You could have picked a better example. Pat did. That green is in no way more manufactured looking than a Short hole with its redundant flat bunkers and unnatural steep grass faces. The steep grass face leading up to the 9th green is natural. The benching in of the green is not.
If you think I am saying that Flynn did not construct features and that it is impossible to determine that because of his sense of naturalism, you are missing the point and are arguing a fool's case. Of course he did, but as you said, he went to great lengths to tie those greens in to immediate and distant surrounds. So then how is your argument valid?
It could even stand to reason that there are sites for golf courses were the Flynn method would yield an inferior result to the Raynor method. In fact, I believe that flatter sites may be more suited to Raynor's templates.
You have no idea what you are talking about. You haven't even seen enough Flynn courses to know what a Flynn method is. Have you seen any Flynn plans for flat sites? How would you know what he would do? What he wouldn't do was stamp out familiar versions of holes seen at everyone of his golf courses, like Raynor. By the way, how much Raynor are you familiar with? You pose as an expert to say that Flynn's methods could yield inferior results to Raynor's methods. I don't see how you can support such an ignorant statement especially since your experience and knowledge is so far from complete. Perhaps I underestimate you. Please explain your conclusions. They are really just unsupported speculations, aren't they?
Bill B,
You don't know me at all so your guess that I wouldn't respond was uniformed and incorrect. Just like Kyle is incorrect that the 9th at HVCC looks more man-made than the Short at LM. Do you know what the hole at HVCC looks like? How familiar are you with Flynn? His methods are not as easily compartmentalized or generalized as Kyle is wont to do and which works better for Raynor.