[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

[Bill_McBride]

I haven't been there, but is that Lookout Mountain?  The bermuda rough (with cool overseeded dew path!  ) is very familiar to me.

And that tee would be perfect for a Redan hole!

[wsmorrison]

Not surprisingly, I find this hole far from superb.  In fact, from its appearance in the photographs, I think it a mediocre golf hole and cannot see how it is superb even within its genre.

The beautiful rock formation looks terrible in its conversion to a tee with its seemingly very steep stairs and different colored stone platform for the tee itself.  Is this an original tee?

Now the green end.  Just what is so superb about this green or its site?  In what way is it superb in comparison to other Short greens?  Why wouldn't a low profile green that sits closer to the ground be as interesting in terms of playability and less formulaic and artificial looking?  What are the advantages of having flat sand bunkers fronting the perched green?  If you were going to build up the green site, why not at least have the uneven contour be the stance for short approach shots?  Why give the golfer a perfect lie in sand?  Are there bunkers at the rear or do long shots bound down the slope?  

[Ted Kramer]

I agree with Wayne, it does nothing for me.
And I think the tee looks terrible.

-Ted

[JESII]

Wayne,

You keep this up and I'll become sure you are kidding...are you trying to turn around that needle?

[Gary Daughters]

Yes, Lookout Mountain.

I didn't find the hole to be very compelling.  That back tee was closed the day that I played and the green is a big, easy target from anywhere else.

Something positive is that the hole is a nice break from some difficult but enlivening golf.  To the right of the rock in the picture you can see a small portion of the green complex from the previous hole, and it is an absolute mind bender.  Most approaches must carry a frightfully deep bunker (see the foto in Ran's review to get but a hint) and the green itself is a monster.  I think I'd rather be in the deep bunker than to have to chip or even putt across it left to right.

A lot of Lookout Mountain is like that.. golf on a razor's edge.  That Short hole can be a needed respite.

[Bill Brightly]

I was about to say that I don't like the out of bounds stakes...until I read Wayne's post. I wouldn't want to be on his side.

I'll assume it's a Raynor hole, but my guess is the tee was added much later to add length, etc. What's the story behind the tee? Do you actually hit your tee shot across the Sort Hole?

[wsmorrison]

Sully,

I'm simply trying to offer a different perspective to these MacRayBanks junk food junkies  

Bill,

Welcome back into the light from the darkness    

Come on, RMD. What specifically makes this a superb hole?  How is it differentiated from other Short holes?  The most Gawdawful tee in history?  It is surely the most often replicated green in history and remains a mediocre concept at best (except for NGLA) and overly artificial and trite at worst.

[david h. carroll]

I rather enjoyed the Short at Lookout but I think it would be vastly improved if there were no trees behind it thereby removing depth perception

[Tom Dunne]

I would have preferred an escalator to a flight of stairs.

[Mark Smolens]

Wouldn't ADA require an elevator rather than your escalator?

[wsmorrison]

This photograph from 1902 of a tee at CC Scranton might rival the Lookout tee for fugliness:

[Bill_McBride]

This photograph from 1902 of a tee at CC Scranton might rival the Lookout tee for fugliness:

Ocean Reef GC at the Ocean Reef Resort on Key Largo has two tees like that, stuck out over the swamp with forced carries over the swamp to short par 4s.  Damndest thing you've ever seen.  And the non-member guest fee was over $150 if I recall correctly!  

If you open up this link http://www.golflink.com/golf-courses/course.asp?course=204645
you'll see the two tees opposite each other on the sides of a main road (N-S) at the south end of the property, way at the bottom of the golf courses.  Pretty funny stuff.......

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill Brightly,

I was a member of Ocean Reef and those tees are the product of environmentalists run amuck.

Gary,

When the hole location is near the perimeter the hole takes on a heightened degree of strategy, especially if the green has the donut or horseshoe feature.

Hole locations near the perimeter allow the little short hole to take on a ferocious personality since shots that miss the green pay a terrible price and shots that are played to the center of the green are left with difficult putts.

For a seemingly benign hole, it's quite feisty, especially if WIND is present.

The unfortunate part is that the contouring within the putting surface has been lost or softened on many "shorts" to present an inferior challenge for those not able to successfully land near the hole.

Let me place the hole location near the perimeter, close to the nearby donut/horseshoe contour and lets see how easy you think this hole is.

One of the unfortunate aspects of the "shorts" is the tree growth that's occured nearby, thus blocking the WIND and its effect on the golfer and his approach.

The tee pictured reminds me of some of the tees one must climb at clubs in Westchester County

How far above the green is that tee ?

[Kyle Harris]

Green looks like it has some neat contours and you'd be screwed if shortsided.

Guess Raynor did a good job of distracting Wayne from what really matters to scoring on the hole.

[wsmorrison]

Kyle,

It is more like he made me puke with that tee and then bored me to tears with another rendition of a dull design.

Pat,

There are hundreds of examples of par 3 greens that have interesting pin positions along the periphery and in central portions of a green.  It doesn't have to be a lopped off cone with a horseshoe or donut in the middle of a propped up circular green.  In fact, a designer can use that location to design a fascinating green on a ridgeline that is infinitely better looking and an equal or greater challenge.  Would you like to see this trite design at the 11th at Shinnecock Hills?  I still think Raynor should have evolved into having concentric donuts instead of just one.  Think how much more interesting and challenging that would be.  And with wind, oh my goodness  

[Mike Hendren]

I think this is a very good hole when played from the lower tee.  From there, distance perception is distorted (note how the dew path disappears over the slight rise) with only the flag visible.  You cannot begin to fathom the extent of the drop-off behind and right of the green.  The net result of those two dynamics is a tendency to be short.

Coupled with typical green contouring that only LMCC members can read after years of frustration, it's a good hole and nicely complements the other stellar par three templates.  

Mike

[Bill Brightly]

Can anyone tell me if the trees behind this green were always there? If not, is there a steep drop off behind the green? What would the view be like without the trees?


Wayne is starting to remind me of Alfalfa in the Little Rascals. Remeber the boxing scene where Buster holds off Alfalfa with a straight arm..and Alfalfa can't lay a glove on him?

I don't like OB stakes on any hole, especially a nice Short like this.

Put the beauty of this hole aside, it is such a great hole beacuse it is a fairly simple par, but a fairly quick double bogey if you miss the green, which makes the tee shot so mentally challenging.

[JMorgan]

Talk about your preposterous tees -

[Jordan Wall]

I can't help it.

That tee is the ugliest tee box I have ever seen.

I mean, what a cool, ruined rock formation.

[john_stiles]

The short at Lookout can be a respite unless the wind is blowing on top of the mountain.

It is a little shorter than many but has a few obvious problems if you miss.  Longer grass behind and to a certain extent on the right side can catch a few balls.

One issue is that with the large green, and short distance, it looks shorter than it plays, about 120 yards.

If I could knock on some wooden typewriter keys, I could elaborate a little more on the play of this short.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JMorgan,

Is there really that much difference between that tee box and the upper tee box at # 18 at Yale ?

I think part of the issue goes to form versus substance and function.

There's almost a UNIVERSAL attraction in life that:
"Looks Bad, but, Feels Good"

Wayne,

What you continually ignore is the desirability of Raynor's and Banks's product.

It was revered and clamored for.

When clubs were being formed and wanted to retain Raynor and/or Banks, they wanted their BRAND, Their "Product Identity".

Why should they change ?
Why should they give their clients what the clients didn't want ?

"Short" greens also had other internal contouring, such as the 11th at Westhampton, where the green was segmented, not unlike the 1st at NGLA.

That hole is a spectacular par 3 and the WINDS that sweep the property make it exponentially better.

I know few par 3 holes, especially mid to short holes, that play as sporty and challenging as the "short".

As to the concentric circles concept, I"m not so sure I'm on board with that concept.

Have you seen it anywhere in golf ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

Give the Devil his due.

That's pretty intimidating looking hole when the cup is cut is near the back or flanks of that green.

[JMorgan]

JMorgan,

Is there really that much difference between that tee box and the upper tee box at # 18 at Yale ?

Patrick, how so?

[wsmorrison]

Pat,

I don't ignore the fact that Raynor and Banks were in demand.  Yet, I don't draw any quality conclusions from that sort of analysis. I get that they had a brand and they gave their clients what they wanted.  It is clear to me that clients eventually chose to go in another direction and that was towards naturalism.  That to me was a great improvement in the aesthetics and led to the use of perception cues and miscues in design.

I suggested that Raynor and Banks should have gone to concentric donuts.  If anyone would have the nerve to do that, it would have to be one of them.  Given that you like one donut, I thought you'd like more than one far better  

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