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Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A return to architecture as THE focus
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2007, 08:36:26 PM »
John,

I think it's great what your club is doing. And I love the name change to Carolina Golf Club!

I have no doubt that a really good golf course priced at 1/3 of the buy in of other clubs would do well. But you had two major advantages: a Ross course to start with and the ability to purchase 40 acres of land!  Most club trying that in the NY Metro area would go broke! (Except some on Long Island ;)  

It is an iteresting concept. Putting money aside, if you got rid of the pool, tennis, fancy restaurant, etc.  you would be attracting a "pure golfer" membership. And I think that's a good start when judging a prospective member!

I wonder if you could start from scratch in a fully developed area such as NY, Philly, Chicago and compete with the mature clubs?
Let's say you somehow came up with a good piece of land at a price that didn't doom the plan...and got Doak, C&C or another great architect to build a first class course, and made it basically "golf only." Could you make the economics work at a $30,000 initiation fee and $7000 annual dues? And how long would it take to fill up your membership?

Could you really compete with the numerous, well established old dead guy clubs in each of those areas???

« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 08:38:13 PM by Bill Brightly »

John Shimp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A return to architecture as THE focus
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2007, 08:48:37 PM »
Bill,
Interesting question.  I don't think it is easy to do what you suggest.  Boston Golf Club by Hanse might be an example, but i'm not familiar enough with its slate of amenities to know if it is a good example of pure golf only club.  I sort of doubt if it doesn't at least offer some real nice dining but I am guessing.

I do think there is a way to make it though for floundering clubs in big cities with some level of quality to their architecture by really focusing on improving what they have re: golf and then tightly focusing what else they offer (or more appropriately for this thread what they dont!).

Andy Troeger

Re:A return to architecture as THE focus
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2007, 09:09:15 PM »
Patrick, Bill Brightly, Andy troeger,

Replies 2, 5, and 15 can give you all some real life examples on this topic.  Might prevent more blanket statements like clubs must have very good food and do everyting well to merit a waiting list.

John,
They are all interesting examples and all very different examples of situations around the country. If I tried to make a blanket statement it dealt with the variety of types of clubs and the difficulty to generalize everything into one basket.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:A return to architecture as THE focus
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2007, 09:48:41 PM »
Tommy Williamson,

While pools may not have closed, many clubs have dramatically altered the hours of operation of their pools in an effort to stem costs.

The same goes for dining and other activities.

Clubs are begging for members, nationwide.
That's one of the reasons why initiation fees have dropped dramatically.   Clubs need the revenues to support operations, and if dues continue to escalate, more members will drop out and fewer will want to join.

Are there exceptions ?  Sure, but, they're exceptions.

The trend is clear, memberships are down, and that in turn puts stress on the operating budget and the attractiveness  and pricing of the product.

Clubs that don't change with the times, cultures and financial pressures will find themselves struggling to survive in the not too distant future.

As to clubs spending money to improve their facilities, did they pay for the work with an assessment or did they finance the expenditures hoping to be able to pay for them in the future ?

Carrying debt gets exponentially more expensive as the membership ranks shrink.

Clubs should AVOID debt as much as possible, it's the executioner's calling card
« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 09:51:41 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Kyle Harris

Re:A return to architecture as THE focus
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2007, 09:51:18 PM »
A reduced operation pool still needs to be insured... how much does THAT cost alone?

Patrick_Mucci

Re:A return to architecture as THE focus
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2007, 10:00:55 PM »
A reduced operation pool still needs to be insured... how much does THAT cost alone?


Kyle,

An inordinate number of clubs have eliminated their high and/or low diving board for that reason.

It was a condition of the carrier issuing the policy.
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cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A return to architecture as THE focus
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2007, 10:03:59 PM »
I can tell you that 96% of the golfers at 96% of the country clubs couldn't care less about the courses architeture.

It's about everything else
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A return to architecture as THE focus
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2007, 10:08:31 PM »
Pat;  Most of your observations are accurate and have been noted in the literature published in connection with club management.  However I question the implication contained in your title.  I wonder whether the "focus" of most private clubs was ever architecture.

I suspect the change in health for clubs is related to several factors.  First among them is a change in the use of clubs caused, in part , by changes in social mores.  40 years ago when most families consisted of a male breadwinner and a spouse who stayed home with the children, it was not uncommon for the member to spend the weekend at the club playing golf and cards.  Social activities were centered at the club and children were sent to camp or amused themselves at the pool or on the tennis courts.  Today, the male spouse is expected to help out  with the children and the number of organized activities for children has increased exponentially.  The time spent at the club has decreased.  No comment on which style is "better", I am merely observing a change that has impacted  clubs.

In addition, many clubs were really out "in the country."  As a result there were fewer restaurants in the immediate vicinity to compete with the dining room and it was not as easy to go back and forth to the club.  This made it easier to support a successful dining room and clubhouse.

Additionally there were fewer clubs.  Clubs were able to be more selective in admitting members and those admitted were more willing and able to support their club.  A further symptom, not noted in your excellent list, is that members almost invariably purchased equipment from their club pro.  Many today buy from the cheapest source yet expect the same level of loyalty and service from their pro.

None of this goes toward solving the issues you have raised.  But because the issues are largely unrelated to the excellence of architecture, an emphasis on that aspect of the club may not help the club survive. Clearly each club has to try and reach consensus as to what is important to the bulk of its members and what they are willing to pay.  In our experience, the improvements to the course which helped bring back much of the Colt & Allison, have helped in the recruitment of new members.  Golf course expenditures invariably pass with little debate.  We continue to wrestle with food service issues regarding hours of service, scope of menu and pricing.  Gathering data regarding times of use, menu selections and the like are critical in trying to dispel myths perpetuated by members with agendas.  At our club, the myth is that the older members (I am in the middle) are those that support the club disproportionately.  Ranking the members by $$ spent can be very enlightening.  It is also important to knowhow the $$ are spent.  It is here where margins matter.  When a club understands the data, it can decide which activities it is willing to subsidize and which must pay for themselves.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A return to architecture as THE focus
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2007, 04:35:50 AM »
I realize that the markets are different, but from a UK perspective there are very few "country clubs".  Consequently, there is nothing to go back to as the focus.  Membership numbers are still down despite the already stripped down nature of most British clubs.  I  have been surprised by some of the clubs that are suffering.  This shows that very few clubs are immune from the current trends.  

I think some clubs have suffered minimal membership losses because the course hasn't been properly looked after or put in another way, the focus has been on the social side via the catering and bar.  However, the bottom line is that there are not enough people interested enough to fill all the available memberships.  IMO, the problem isn't too few golfers, its too many clubs.  Perhaps changing the model of services available at country clubs will alter this trend in a general sense, but if the UK is anything to go on - I wouldn't count on it.  

Interestingly, part of the solution for many small clubs may be the reverse of what is current thought.  Many clubs look for ways to get visitor green fees.  Our club has entertained the idea of not allowing visitors.  The money brought in isn't that important compared to the possibility that the club may be cutting its own throat (in the long term) by making the course available to non-members.  Of course, this wouldn't work well for the famous clubs.  In fact, many of these clubs look to maintain their visitor income and reducing visitors by raising green fees.  

Ciao
« Last Edit: December 03, 2007, 04:36:54 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Rich Goodale

Re:A return to architecture as THE focus
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2007, 07:47:18 AM »
Quite frankly, what the UK is lacking are "Country Clubs."  The village I live in has a golf club, a tennis club a lawn bowling club and a yacht club, all within easy walking distance of each other (<1/2 a mile), but none of them (with the possible exception of the tennis club) are child and family friendly, and each of them seems perfectly happy to act on their own with little more than a passing friendliness with the others.  This is a village of 1,500 people, by the way.

Young families need multi-use facilities/clubs which can offer a variety of activiites for all age groups and a common central facility which provides a focal point as well as an economical use of infrastructure.  All that is needed for this to happen is to adopt some sort of activity based pricing.  If the old farst wan't to dominate the golf facilities, fine, but make them pay foir it.  If the young families want a play area and a gym, let them fund that.  Let the tennis players pay forthe tennis adn the bowlers for their green, and as for the sailors--just give them their daily ration of grog and they'll do anything you say.

The American UberClub model is well past it's sell-by date, but that doesn't mean that a more focused alternative would not work, in the USA as well as the UK.

Mike Sweeney

Re:A return to architecture as THE focus
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2007, 09:16:39 AM »
Richard, Sean,

You both sound like economist to me!  ;) Oops wrong thread again!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:A return to architecture as THE focus
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2007, 08:00:47 PM »
SL Solow,

I didn't say that "Architecture" was the EXISTING focus.

My question essentially asks, if the distractions are removed, will the golf course become the center of attention ?

Chris McCuaig

Re:A return to architecture as THE focus
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2007, 08:27:54 PM »
Interesting Topic. Over the last few years my golf club has had two main issues consume all the clubs time. The issues have been do we build a brand new clubhouse or renovate the existing clubhouse. The second issue is do we keep our curling club which some argue has been supported by the golf members.

The end result is that we have renovated the clubhouse and kept curling alive. During this time we have all but ignored the golf course. My main concern now is that the club has gone into significant debt to "improve" itself. Some members have discussed renovating our greens/bunkers but there is no appetite to do this now as we have significant debt.

Chris