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John Foley

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Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« on: November 30, 2007, 11:50:26 AM »
Some of the recent discussions on golf in Arizona got me thinking:

Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?

For this discussion let’s define world class as a Doak 9-10. That definition would be:

 9. An outstanding course—certainly one of the best in the world—with no weaknesses in regard to condition, length or poor holes. You should see this course sometime in your life.
10. Nearly perfect; if you skipped even one hole, you would miss something worth seeing. If you haven’t seen all the courses in this category, you don’t know how good golf architecture can get. Call your travel agent—immediately.

Lets look at the courses which this group feels are the worthy of discussion in that area:

Desert Forrest
Black Mesa
Apche Stronghold
Whisper Rock

I think it’s a safe assumption that none of these are 9’s or 10’s.

Are there others and would they fit the description?

Outlaw at Desert Mountain
Stone Canyon
Cabo Del Sol

I expect the answer on these would be the same. No.

So why then why doesn’t a world calss course exist in the desert?

Is it not just built yet?

What’s so different about desert golf that it hasn't been built yet?

No trees or no wall to wall grass? No sand based soil? Is the transition from fw/green tp desert too abrupt while in the priare / sand hills area it works?

Is it that the area defined by desert is too small or is it just that it hasn’t been built yet?

Whats the answer?
Integrity in the moment of choice

Ken Moum

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Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2007, 01:36:32 PM »
I don't pretend to have the answer to that, having only played one Doak 10--The Old Course.

But I have a followup question.

How many Doak 9s and 10s have been built during time when most of that list was built?

The oldest course there is Desert Forest. The rest are all less than 10 years old. You can include We-Ko-Pa as well.

Re. Desert Forest, I suspect that less than one in a thousand golfers have any clue about the place. I didn't have any inkling of what it was, other than unattainable, until the last year or so. And I got my first clubs in 1950.

What's the newest course that scores a solid 9 on the Doak Scale?

Ken
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Matt_Ward

Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2007, 03:11:07 PM »
John:

Try to keep this in mind-- Tom Doak's own personal view as espoused at that time in "Confidential Guide" was not enthusiastic about courses in the desert and his overall rating numbers, I believe, bore that out. Nothing wrong with having personal preferences -- but my take on what Doak believed at that time was not exactly glowing about desert locales. Clearly, his opinions could have evolved or changed since the book's publication

Also, the desert area, as home to many recent additions to the golfing market is not as fully MATURED as the other locations that often get far more attention on this site --e.g. the Northeast corridor of the USA, comes quickly to mind. The original concept of target golf -- the "either or" variety have since gone through an evolution in which far superior courses have come forward -- a number of which are often rarely played by the folks on this site. One cannot downplay "homerism" as a reflection of what certain people really see as quality golf locations.

Personally, given the fact that I have sampled nearly all of the key courses in the desert SW of America I can say that there are a few courses, I believe, are at the 9 level now. I am a mega fan of Black Mesa, as many are aware, and see the work Baxter Spann did there, in concert with Eddie Peck and Pat Brockwell, in comparable terms to the reviews people bring forward about Pacific Dunes. Although the two courses are worlds apart in terms of styles / locations -- the essence of what Black Mesa provides in its rich array of design ingredients is no less, in my mind, to what you hear about when people rave about Pac Dunes.

I've also said many times that far too often on GCA, there's a tendency for people to apply higher rating numbers because of the person who's done the work -- even if people downplay that last statement -- I do seeing it have some effect on the final outcome / disposition of what people believe.

Let me also point out that the work of Phil Mickelson and Gary Stephenson at the original 18 at Whisper Rock is also superlative stuff IMHO. The course offers a far different version in how a desert environment can be integrated in a manner that's beyond the limited "either or" type courses that have for too long dominated the agenda of so many other courses. Whisper Rock has all the aspects that so many people gush about with other layouts -- there's sufficient width, the challenges can be applied to the top tier players and the greens are richly diverse in terms of shape, contour and demands.

You also mentioned Outlaw at DM -- personally, I don't see the course at the 9 level but I do see it as being a solid 7 because the Nicklaus team offered a completely different version of golf than what you see with their other layouts at DM. Chirichua -- also at DM -- is another "must" play for those coming to the AZ desert. In my mind, I would rate the layout at the 8 level.

John, you can throw into the mix the qualities found at Desert Forest -- a truely classic Red Lawrence design. I'd give it a 9 in my personal assessments of courses played.

You also have to bear in mind that few areas of the USA -- will have an oversupply of 9 and 10 for the very reason that 9 and 10 rated layouts will be in short supply. I don't see the desert locale as working against that possibility but clearly my enthusiasm for the region is not shared by others. Like I said many times before -- some people favor certain types of food -- the desert locale is like Thai food -- if your taste buds are geared towards and steak and potato type foods then Thai food will not be toward you liking.

Tim Leahy

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Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2007, 03:18:31 PM »
Being a cart golfer and not considering the walking option, I would say that Stone Eagle is a 9 on the scale.
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2007, 03:29:27 PM »
Wait until TW's course in Dubai opens. ;D
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2007, 03:33:36 PM »
Agronmic issues aside, I still maintain that the best golf course Tom Doak has ever designed is sitting on an Indian Reservation just outside of Globe, Arizona.

At least of the courses I have seen. It's got all of the makings of a great movie: Struggling young architect makes good on the Arinzona desert floor, only to have his scalp chopped-off by a bunch of ruthless Apache indians.

Matt_Cohn

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Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2007, 03:35:56 PM »
Couldn't the original version of Pine Valley have been built in a desert?

mark chalfant

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Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2007, 03:37:16 PM »
I personally feel that Desert Forest in  Carefree, Arizona is one of the finest courses in the USA. The fairway  contours seem utterly natural . The variety of par fours is exemplary  in terms of challenge and playability. The sense of place is unforgettable, almost spiritual in  its embrace of the indigenous flora,fauna,and integrated desert ecosystem.

I wish there was a shade more variety  in the par threes. however the remarkable par fives, rich in strategy and topography, more than compensate !!  Fun, challenging, and pure. Certainy  8.5- 9 in my book
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 03:44:40 PM by mark chalfant »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2007, 03:38:15 PM »
Oh, and yes, I do think at one time, the Coachella Valley had the makings; the very foundation of a world class course. The sand dunes that once existed there were amazing.

They are now gone.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2007, 03:39:23 PM »
Couldn't the original version of Pine Valley have been built in a desert?

No. Not even close.

Peter Pallotta

Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2007, 04:04:00 PM »
John -
This is a matter of taste I know, but for my tastes I've always found it hard to imagine how even the finest golf course design could be made to fit/tie into its environment if that environment was a desert.  

I don't know how important anyone else thinks a site-natural aesthetic is in determining the greatness of a course, but for me it's an important element.    

That special and intangible quality of 'rightness' that has TOC fit so naturally on the British coast (or Pine Valley on a piney, sandy section of New Jersey) seems to me a major factor in the total golfing experience those courses provide.    

Can any green space feel that right in the midst of miles of surrounding desert/scrubland? I don't think so. Should that be taken into account when ranking a course, or judging its greatness? Probably not; but like I say, it does seem important to me.

Peter

JESII

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Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2007, 04:23:07 PM »
Couldn't the original version of Pine Valley have been built in a desert?


What does that mean? "The original version"...

Jason Topp

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Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2007, 04:24:10 PM »
Couldn't the original version of Pine Valley have been built in a desert?

No. Not even close.

Why not?

John Foley

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Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2007, 04:27:29 PM »
Matt & Peter - You two have hit on the polar ends of this.

Desert golf for many folks will be an aquired taste, but that taste should not be percieved as any less fullfilling nor any less strategic than your typical praire-land or parkland (or even links land for that matter) courses that most of us are used to playing. In the end will this, it's not like my home area, sway how truly good these courses are?

Sure the design can be much more penal than others, but w/ the right factors than can be lessened. (More open space, somewhat thinner native area's - but that could make for a more manufactured / less native look which could be looked down upon.

Peter - you say that the green space doesn't look right in the desert, where I think that stark differnce heightes the senses and calls out some thing waayy different than we are used to.

Tommy - Where we're the dunes in the Coachella Valley?
Integrity in the moment of choice

Matt_Cohn

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Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2007, 04:40:15 PM »
JES,
Original means without trees. Sorry, I should have mentioned that.

The question is, what's the difference between building a course in sandy scrubland in New Jersey, and sandy scrubland in Arizona?

Peter Pallotta

Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2007, 04:40:22 PM »
Phil
What I'm describing is the experience I have driving up to a course for the first time and casually taking-in the land/surrounding countryside; and finding time and time again how my experience on the golf course itself is heightened when the way it looks matches what I've seen all around it. That site-natural look and feeling doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the course's strategic options or fun or challenge or all that other good stuff; but it does make me feel more like I'm in a natural setting, which I like very much.

Peter

Bart Bradley

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Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2007, 04:45:14 PM »
John:

I recently asked a very similar question about mountain golf.  The most common response revolved around the fact that this sort of golf was newer, less explored and therefore had not reached the level of older more traditional sites for golf courses.  Tom Doak said that it was not impossible to build a "10" mountain golf course but that it was more difficult given the terrain challenges.  To some degree, this probably applies to desert golf as well.  For many, the aesthetics of the desert are somewhat limiting and this may make it more difficult to design and construct such a golf course.  I know that for me personally, a mountain site or seaside site is inherently more visually and environmentally appealing ....Desert scenery is attractive in its way, but I prefer others more.  So, I think the answer is yes ...of course it is possible...BUT.

Bart

Jason Topp

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Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2007, 04:54:45 PM »
Phil
What I'm describing is the experience I have driving up to a course for the first time and casually taking-in the land/surrounding countryside; and finding time and time again how my experience on the golf course itself is heightened when the way it looks matches what I've seen all around it. That site-natural look and feeling doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the course's strategic options or fun or challenge or all that other good stuff; but it does make me feel more like I'm in a natural setting, which I like very much.

Peter


I've never been to Pine Valley but isn't a course just as unnatural in sandy scrub land as it is in a desert?  

Sand Hills certainly does not look natural - the green fairways almost look like astroturf against the brown surrounds.  

I also think a lot of desert terrain has as much going for it as other locations.  A bunch of rolling dunes that can be walked.

 

Matt_Ward

Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2007, 05:29:28 PM »
John, et al:

The evolution of desert style golf is something many of the inexperienced set of eyes on GCA will likely notice. Too often people make the quick and ignorant retort that desert golf is all the same.

Wrong -- big time.

Desert golf has evolved and you can see it with the range of courses that have come forward since the time of Desert Forest and how the involvement of different architects have taken the "either or" penal style that so many fostered to a much more discriminating style.

Here's the other thing to consider -- there are clear preferences / biases on this site regarding what is truly preferred. Desert golf will not be everyone's cup of tea but far too often the inherent preferences / biases come ringing loud and clear when you see ratings or course review numbers.

I've had the pleasure in being a regular to the desert SW of the USA for well over 25 years. I've seen the continuing evolution of desert golf styles and some of the ones you mentioned are clearly first rate and IMHO, some of the best golf options I have had the opportunity play.

Far too often people have a limited personal portfolio of desert style courses and as a result you get people throwing broad brush style comments that essentially say all desert golf is essentially the same.

Clearly, tastes are involved here -- so is keeping one's eyes open for what is there now.

Tom_Doak

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Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2007, 05:44:32 PM »
First off, I'd have to wonder if the mantle of a "world class" course equates to a 9 on the Doak scale -- of which there are only about 30 in the world.  Most people would say at least the top 100 in the world qualified as "world class."

There are a handful of desert courses which might rate an 8 on the Doak scale.  But there aren't any which I would rate a 9, including my own.

The award of a 9 to Desert Forest is ridiculous.  I like Desert Forest, and it is different than all of the other desert courses because of its vintage and viewpoint.  It's got something more like the traditional green tilt and bunkering of a parkland course.  But it is NOT, NOT in the same league in those aspects as Winged Foot West (which is a 9 on the Doak scale), and the desert setting doesn't add anything to its review, any more than it subtracts.  I think I rated Desert Forest a 6, and in a more generous mood I could see a 7, but no more.

I think it is possible to build a 10 in the desert but I don't know if anyone ever will.  What separates the 10's from the rest is that they are UNIQUE in their character, and the underlying problem for desert courses is that it's hard to make them not look like all the other desert courses.  (The same goes for parkland courses by the way, that's one reason why Winged Foot West is a 9 and not a 10.)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 05:45:03 PM by Tom_Doak »

Ryan Farrow

Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2007, 06:28:13 PM »
Agronmic issues aside, I still maintain that the best golf course Tom Doak has ever designed is sitting on an Indian Reservation just outside of Globe, Arizona.

At least of the courses I have seen. It's got all of the makings of a great movie: Struggling young architect makes good on the Arinzona desert floor, only to have his scalp chopped-off by a bunch of ruthless Apache indians.

Tommy, you better hope Jordan doesn't see this. As far as Doak scale ratings, is there not a deduction if the course is built in a place where there simply should not be a golf course? Maybe Apache can get away with it if they have their own water rights and are not taking excess water away from anyone nearby. I was just at a sustainability conference today in downtown Phoenix where the cities water supply is predicted to be in a crisis state by 2030 if the population projections are correct (about 10 million). I'm sure golf courses will be the first ones shut off which begs the question if they should be built in this environment in the first place. Although I must say that Apache Stronghold is on an incredible piece of land and a golf course can still exist without grass, see Kabul Golf Club.

Tom_Doak

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Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2007, 06:48:10 PM »
Ryan:

I have mentioned this in the forum years ago, but when we were planning Apache Stronghold, I was concerned that the Tribe might not understand how much water a golf course required, and I kept asking how much they had, only to be assured vaguely that it was enough.

A few months before construction, there was an item in the paper.  The city of Globe had directionally drilled underneath the reservation for water.  The Tribe had found out about it, and threatened to cut off Tucson.  (Apparently the underground flow runs that way.)  We had a good laugh about that on my next visit, and they encouraged me to have as much acreage of turf as we wanted.

The problem with Phoenix isn't that there are too many golf courses; it's that too many people are moving there for the amount of water they've got.  Someday they will figure it out -- probably the hard way.

Ulrich Mayring

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Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2007, 07:47:58 PM »
Water usage on desert golf courses not a problem? Does anyone have actual numbers and can source them?

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_resources:

It has been estimated that a single average mid-western US golf course is equivalent to a population of 50,000 residents in water usage. (Thus, in areas where there are 20 golf courses the load is that of one million residents, as found in tourist areas such as Phoenix and Tucson, Arizona, and the famed 100 courses of Palm Springs and Desert Hot Springs, California use the equivalent of 5,000,000 resident consumers' water.)

Ulrich
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 07:48:28 PM by Ulrich Mayring »
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

John Foley

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Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2007, 07:54:59 PM »
First off, I'd have to wonder if the mantle of a "world class" course equates to a 9 on the Doak scale -- of which there are only about 30 in the world.  Most people would say at least the top 100 in the world qualified as "world class."

There are a handful of desert courses which might rate an 8 on the Doak scale.  But there aren't any which I would rate a 9, including my own.

The award of a 9 to Desert Forest is ridiculous.  I like Desert Forest, and it is different than all of the other desert courses because of its vintage and viewpoint.  It's got something more like the traditional green tilt and bunkering of a parkland course.  But it is NOT, NOT in the same league in those aspects as Winged Foot West (which is a 9 on the Doak scale), and the desert setting doesn't add anything to its review, any more than it subtracts.  I think I rated Desert Forest a 6, and in a more generous mood I could see a 7, but no more.

I think it is possible to build a 10 in the desert but I don't know if anyone ever will.  What separates the 10's from the rest is that they are UNIQUE in their character, and the underlying problem for desert courses is that it's hard to make them not look like all the other desert courses.  (The same goes for parkland courses by the way, that's one reason why Winged Foot West is a 9 and not a 10.)

Tom - Thanks for the insight on how the similarity of the courses in their environment contributes to the perception of the course comes out, I never looked at it that way.

I wondered about an 8 or above, but I thought that there are courses built todays that could fit that bill and wanted to focus the discussion on building something akin to a Sand Hills / Pacific Dunes type WOW factor in the desert.

Surely there exists a piece of property that can fit this bill. My feeling that it's somewhere overlooking the Pacific on the Baja peninsula.
Integrity in the moment of choice

John Foley

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Re:Is it possible to build a world class course in the desert?
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2007, 07:56:43 PM »
Quote from: Bart Bradley ..Desert scenery is attractive in its way, but I prefer others more.  So, I think the answer is yes ...of course it is possible...BUT.

Bart
[quote

Bart - Thanks - I tend to think you are the norm and guys like me and Matt are the outliers in the population.
Integrity in the moment of choice

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