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David Stamm

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Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2007, 12:40:16 PM »
Dan, I don't know when it chnaged or with whom. I don't know if it was Bell later, C&C when they were brought in or if it was Fazio. TN can comment but I'll do some more digging myself. For the record, I think the old green is better, IMHO.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Jim Nugent

Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2007, 12:55:03 PM »
Two questions about Riviera.  Looks like the course has a whole lot more trees now.  Did someone intentionally plant them, or are we merely seeing nature at work?  

Also, has the 10th green always been where it is now, or was it once off to the right?  

David Stamm

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Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2007, 12:58:37 PM »
Jim, I don't know about the trees as a whole, but you can see where the trees were planted on the old 18th photo. They are to the left.(they would be to the right if you were looking at the green from the fw).
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

David Stamm

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Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2007, 01:18:04 PM »
It is hard to tell from the old photo but it seems that 2 very strategic bunkers on the famous 10th hole, which appear in the modern version are not visible in the old photograph.  The diagonal bunker along the right green side and the bunker short and left of the green are not apparent.  Assuming the angle of the photo does not hide the two bunkers, were they original and taken out or later additions?   If those bunkers weren't originally designed, who put them in and what would the hole play like if they weren't there?

This is a fascinating study.  Thanks to everyone that is contributing.  I find the 18th green at Riviera to be a pale imitation of the original.  It seems like the greens need to be expanded back to their original dimensions for the course to really achieve its full potential.  

I'll try to post some interesting then and nows...a bit later.

Then:

 




Wayne, they were added in 1928, a year after it opened. GS in his book says it is not known who did it, but it was likely GT/BB, since GT lived very close by.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

David Stamm

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Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2007, 01:19:12 PM »
Wayne, BTW, I was hoping you would add some of your then and now's. ;) I know you must have some good ones!
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Mike Benham

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Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2007, 01:41:02 PM »
Whoever imported the eucalyptus to California should be, well, buried in a nice coffin made from the evil wood.
"... and I liked the guy ..."

David Stamm

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Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2007, 01:43:44 PM »
I agree Mike, but I think Riviera is more known for it's Sycamores. There may be some Euc's there, but more Sycs I think.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2007, 01:53:53 PM »
I'll ask again, in a different way:

Is there ANYONE who thinks the Now 18 green at Riviera is as attractive (in any way) as the Then 18 green at Riviera?

How, when, and why did Then 18 become Now 18?

Dan, It's all just lost green surface. The green is much larger then it looks in this photo, but most notably the little "wing" placement that juts out is simething that is surely missed. In the old days, one could play a shot off of that hill and on to the green. But with Kikuyu, it is impossible.

You can't tell it, but the rough in the modern photo, near the hill, that rough is brutally tough. I once saw Dave Stocton take a full swing and move the ball minus 6 inches.....

BRUTAL.

wsmorrison

Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #33 on: November 30, 2007, 02:32:00 PM »
The Cascades 11th hole 1930s



The Cascades 11th hole 1990s



The Cascades 11th hole Jan 2006 (before sand added)




The Cascades 4th hole 1930s



The Cascades 4th hole 1990s



The Cascades 4th hole earlier this year (hopefully green expansion all the way to the right has taken place)


Joel_Stewart

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Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2007, 02:36:54 PM »
Great work by all.  

I would suggest that Ran develop this as its own category where people can submit photos.  It could be caegorized similar to courses by country and could be a huge resource for people all over the world to compare photos.

David Stamm

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Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2007, 02:46:40 PM »
The Cascades 11th hole 1930s



The Cascades 11th hole 1990s



The Cascades 11th hole Jan 2006 (before sand added)




The Cascades 4th hole 1930s



The Cascades 4th hole 1990s



The Cascades 4th hole earlier this year (hopefully green expansion all the way to the right has taken place)





Great photos Wayne! I knew you'd come through! ;)


Here's a photo of the 10th green at Riviera that you'd find interesting. Also one of the 18th for you and Dan.

Here's the 10th




And here's another then view of the 18th green
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

wsmorrison

Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2007, 03:40:31 PM »
Indian Creek CC 12th hole 1931



Indian Creek CC 12th hole today





Merion East 9th hole ~1916



Merion East 9th hole today




Shinnecock Hills 11th 1931



Shinnecock Hills 11th today (notice the sand face doesn't come up nearly as high)


David Stamm

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Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2007, 03:43:47 PM »
Keep 'em coming Wayne. Great stuff!!!
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Bart Bradley

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Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2007, 05:39:43 PM »
Wayne:

In an earlier thread I mentioned that I had been disappointed with the Cascades during my 2005 visit....I can certainly see quite a difference (positive) with the changes in the bunkering....I need to go try it again...Thanks for pics... :D

Bart
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 05:40:05 PM by Bart Bradley »

wsmorrison

Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2007, 06:21:52 PM »
Bart,

I think you will enjoy the effort that went into the bunkers and also some fairway work.  Tom Paul and I, along with Craig Disher, provided the historical evolution report and analysis that was used to restore the bunkers.  Fifty years or so of benign neglect and dumping sand in the bunkers left them flat and featureless.  I think they work and look a whole lot better.  It is a wonderful resort, I'm glad you'll give it another chance.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #40 on: November 30, 2007, 06:28:35 PM »
What's interesting to me, and I almost universally favor the older versions, is the dynamic between manual labor, machine labor, the cost of labor and the bunker lines.

When manual labor was CHEAP and play sparse, it was easy to maintain the intricate bunker lines by hand.

As the cost of labor increased and labor saving machines were introduced, intricate bunker lines were lost.

As to the white sand, it's difficult to draw comparisons because one photo may reflect sand that's been in the bunker for 10-20 years while another may reflect sand that's been in the bunker for 10 months.

What's also interesting is that when labor was cheap, fairways appear to be much wider, however, with great labor saving machines, I can't understand why today's fairways are so narrow.  

Are architectural lines dictated by irrigation systems ?

Shouldn't it be the other way around ?

A question for those familiar with Riviera.

It appears that the old 18th green was much closer to the steep slope than the current green.  Is that true ?
If so, how and why was it shifted away from the slope.

My second observation is that trees seem to detract from the vast expanses where features stood out more, in the old photos versus the new ones.

If ever there was an argument to remove or reduce the number of trees on golf courses, these before and after photos should be exhibit # 1.

Mike McGuire

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Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2007, 06:48:16 PM »

West Bend CC (Langford)

#1 before




#1 after



rchesnut

Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2007, 01:14:56 AM »
David, going back to the last page of the thread, you were correct in identifying the old photo as being a shot of #18 at Pasatiempo...but the missing building behind the hole isn't Marion Hollins's old house.  The building behind #18 is called the "Hollins House" in her honor, but her house is on Hollins Dr. (of course) near the 5th tee at Pasatiempo, house #33.  If you're waiting on the par three 5th, go to the back of the blue tees and look away from the hole, through the trees...the house across the street, just barely visible, was her home, built just after the course was completed in 1929.   And of course, her neighbor just down the street on Hollins Drive was Alister MacKenzie, whose home is visible from the 6th fairway.

Rob

Wayne_Freedman

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Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2007, 01:57:13 AM »
In one word...WOW!!

rchesnut

Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2007, 08:43:33 PM »
I didn't even mention that Juli Inkster's childhood home is down the road, along hole #14.   And on that note, I'll return this thread to its originally intended purpose.    :)

Paul_Turner

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Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2007, 09:29:27 PM »


This photo goes to show that no matter how faithful a restoration is, it's going to look crap with current "parkland golf" maitenance practices.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2007, 09:39:04 PM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

rchesnut

Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2007, 12:17:10 AM »
I agree with your point on overmanicured courses, but I don't think this is the best example.  This hole was restored a couple weeks before that picture was taken, and what you're seeing are a lot of newly sodded areas that need time to mature.  With a little time, the hole will regain a bit more of its original rugged character.  And some of what you're looking at is actually some necessary and intelligent erosion control in a very steep area...the course as a whole is not overwatered.   If you've ever played the hole in person, you'd get a better sense of the land...most golfers think the 18th is a real gem.

« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 01:09:18 AM by rchesnut »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2007, 01:02:01 AM »
This is one of the greatest threads in the history of GCA.

I'd relax the standard a tad, though, and suggest that it would also be instructive to include aerial (then and now) photos, as well.

wsmorrison

Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2007, 08:33:23 AM »
TCC, Brookline 1930s



TCC, Brookline now




BCrosby

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Re:Then and now photo's
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2007, 09:19:22 AM »
Great stuff.

This thread proves that there is no - as in zero - reason to think courses evolve for the better. If anything, the evidence points in opposite direction.

There are very few of these then and now pics where the then isn't clearly the better hole.

Bob


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