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Phil_the_Author

Re:Building a golf course along a river
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2007, 06:50:31 PM »
Hi James,

I am still waiting to hear the official final plans myself for Shawnee, but they really want to rip up the changes and go back to the original 18 that Tilly designed. It will certainly be an intriguing project and here again is another example of a restoration whose success may greatly depend on the skill of the research done. Tilly tweaked this course many times over the years. In fact it was greatly changed from the time it was opened in 1911 until 1919 in preparation for hosting the US Women's Open that was cancelled due to WW I. He did more tweaking in the 20's as well.

 

Mike_Young

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Re:Building a golf course along a river
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2007, 07:00:52 PM »
Holston Hills may be my favorite course along a river.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

J_ Crisham

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Re:Building a golf course along a river
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2007, 07:13:15 PM »
Great call on Holston Hills! Hard to believe its not on everyone's top100.

Sam Morrow

Re:Building a golf course along a river
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2007, 07:42:52 PM »
Champions Golf Club in Houston makes good use of a river on a par 3 and a par 5. I forget which holes they were maybe the 4th and the 11th? Also Milwaukee CC uses a river for a few of it's better holes.


There at Champions it's actually Cypress Creek which in that part of Northwest Harris County does look much like a river.

JMorgan

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Re:Building a golf course along a river
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2007, 08:49:44 AM »
Holston Hills may be my favorite course along a river.

Ross built quite a few courses along rivers.

Wasn't there a Langford course (NLE) in Cincinnati that had nine crossings of a tributary of the Ohio River?




JMorgan

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Re:Building a golf course along a river
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2007, 08:54:09 AM »
Here are a few images of some of the courses mentioned above:

BANFF:



ROYAL MID-SURREY:



SHAWNEE:



HOLSTON HILLS:



MILWAUKEE:



JMorgan

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Re:Building a golf course along a river
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2007, 10:16:47 AM »
Art Hills' River Islands course in Kodak, Tennessee plays across two islands in the French Broad River.  

Perhaps someone can post the google aerial map.

Mike




Paul Sinclair

Re:Building a golf course along a river
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2007, 05:48:46 PM »
I will try to reply to some of your questions to the extent I have anything that might be useful. I have just been involved in a year long renovation of Willow Oaks Country Club, a golf course in Richmond, VA, on the banks of the James River. I was involved as a Club member so take my observations with a grain of salt.

Our renovation was done by Lester George, who posts regularly on this board. Lester did a phenomenal design job on a difficult property to work with due to its lack of elevation changes. It was basically a pool table before we started the project. I would highly recommend that you contact Lester for more information. He has also been involved in design issues on other river front courses.

The site of the course - particularly the fact that the lower half of the course is in the flood plain of the river - definitely posed some unique problems. There is a description of the project, including numerous explanatory videos we made during the project, available here:

Willow Oaks Renovation

Here is an aerial photo of the property mid-renovation:



Here is a stab at answers to SOME of your questions (your questions in bold) based on what I know:

"What are the perks and pitfalls of golf course construction along or near a river?"

Perks: Probably going to provide some great scenery for great hole possibilities.

Pitfalls: (1) Likely to have flooding problems. (2) Drainage problems if area near river is flat (likely).

"Are there any similarities between linksland and land bordering a river?"

Not in our case. It probably depends on the type of silt that has accumulated on the site during flood events over the years.

"Are there any unique maintenance challenges during the development and maturity of the course?"

Not really as far as I am aware. In our case, we are in the transition zone and so that in itself poses big headaches for the superintendent. In the property nearest the river, it is exceptionally hot and humid during the summer causing problems. The heat and humidity just sit there with very little air movement.

"Is it easier to grow and maintain turf on these sites than other locations?"

I don't think it is any more or less problematic. If you are in an area where the river will overtake the course during floods, you will need to be careful with grass selections. Delicate delicate grasses may not like being under water for days! Lester George has been quite bold in his use of bentgrass in this area of the country but nonetheless advised us against bentgrass for this reason, as well as others.

"Does the site require more or less earthmoving than an inland or linksland site?"

I suspect it is highly likely you will need more earthmoving in order to get necessary elevation changes on course for drainage. We moved around 130,000 cubic yards in order to dig a couple borrow ponds.

"Is it easier or more difficult to work the land than an inland or linksland site?"

Probably no more or less difficult.

"Is it more difficult to create interesting/quirky/sporty holes on a riverside location?"

I would think it should be no more nor less difficult. I do suspect you should be able to get a dramatic hole or two on the river, depending on your site though.

I hope this is somewhat helpful.

Good luck!

JMorgan

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Re:Building a golf course along a river
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2007, 10:55:35 PM »
Paul, thanks for taking the time to answer those questions, and for providing the link to the description of the project and the videos.      

The videos do a nice job of presenting both the fun and the mundane challenges associated with a course renovation.

SPDB

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Re:Building a golf course along a river
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2007, 11:14:26 PM »
JMorgan:
Another one for your collection - Ross' Vesper Country Club,
which has 7 holes on Tyng's Island in the Merrimack River, 9 holes off of it, and 2 holes that cross between the mainland and island.

Make sure to check out the Birds Eye View function.

AERIAL HERE

Jim_Coleman

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Re:Building a golf course along a river
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2007, 07:03:57 AM »
Dye Fore at Casa de Campo.  7 holes along a river 300 feet below; greens perched on river cliffs; 2 par threes with heroic carries over river gorges.  Pretty cool stuff.

JMorgan

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Re:Building a golf course along a river
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2007, 07:02:48 PM »
Dye Fore at Casa de Campo.  7 holes along a river 300 feet below; greens perched on river cliffs; 2 par threes with heroic carries over river gorges.  Pretty cool stuff.




JMorgan

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Re:Building a golf course along a river
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2007, 07:13:23 PM »
Blackwolf Run:


JMorgan

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Re:Building a golf course along a river
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2007, 08:03:52 PM »
Two Rivers:



Wolf Run:




JMorgan

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Re:Building a golf course along a river
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2007, 07:19:59 AM »
Reddish Vale:


JMorgan

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Re:Building a golf course along a river
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2007, 07:29:47 AM »
Anyone want to take a stab at a routing?  

Red shaded area is property, elevations as marked.  One inch = approx. 60 yards.  A stone wall separates the cemetery and the property on the lower right.  A small brook bounds the property on the right side.  Remnants of a canal and towpath as marked with dotted lines.    Sightseeing train track at 933.  


JMorgan

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Re:Building a golf course along a river
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2007, 09:32:10 AM »
Golden age courses might include Banff Springs, Royal Mid-Surrey, Reddish Vale, Sale, Northenden, Didsbury, Chorlton, Bovey Castle (ex-Manor House Hotel), Hermitage, not to mention Carnoustie.

Mark,
On which routing did Colt cross the river six times?  

I answered my own question in the middle of the night:  Barton-on-Sea, but technically the body of water is not a river. Ah, nonconsciousness.  

Does anyone know how much of Barton-on-Sea is original Colt, even as eight of the greens weren't original Colt?

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