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Tommy Williamsen

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architects and choice of site
« on: December 03, 2007, 01:26:34 PM »
We all know that folks like CB picked the site for NGLA and Crump chose the site for his Pine Valley.  And there are stories of architects from the golden age being consulted in securing sites for gold courses.

Are architects today ever consulted on site selection?  It would seem to be a no brainer to ask for their input.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:architects and choice of site
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2007, 01:31:57 PM »
Yes it would, but it doesn't happen more than say, 10% of the time.

I was consulted on the site of the Quarry at Giants Ridge, only because I had designed the first course, and they needed to buy the land for the second.

I can think of a few others "either or" scenarios I have been involved in, as well as a few "what part of our land do we put the course on" scenarios, but of 50 new courses, I have only had site input on about 5.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tony Ristola

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Re:architects and choice of site
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2007, 01:40:34 PM »
It would seem to be a no-brainer, but most of the time you're offered a property, not asked to go on a hunt for one. I don't know of anyone in Europe asked to go on a hunt; then again I haven't done any socializing with my brethren.

I wonder how many architects would turn down a project where the investor had to pony up a ton of bucks to build the project when he'd be better off getting another or more property. One such project comes to mind. At the bottom of a valley, built at major expense, massive dirt moving to end up with a course with as much water as Old Marsh. Maybe the developer wanted it that way... I don't know, but I would have suggested he get a different property.

Recently I'd looked at a site of 275 acres. I could have had it all, but one section of 70 acres was 70% wetland. I told the developers to skip this section, and stick to the 200 plus acres of hills and valley's of...sandy soils for their project.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2007, 01:42:17 PM by Tony Ristola »

Peter Pallotta

Re:architects and choice of site
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2007, 01:57:51 PM »
Good question, Tommy - and the answer is a real surprise.

If they don't already, maybe architects should start advertising and providing a "site selection" service. A flat fee for that specific expertise, no strings attached  :)  

Probably as in any field where the people with the money also have "ideas", it's best if you tell them what those ideas actually are, and as early in the process as possible.  

They won't hold it against you; before long they'll forget that it was your idea anyway.    

Peter
« Last Edit: December 03, 2007, 01:58:23 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Phil_the_Author

Re:architects and choice of site
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2007, 02:03:24 PM »
Tommy,

It happened more often than most realize way back when.

"For a good many years back it has been my extremely pleasant business to select locations for golf courses, prepare the plans and frequently to supervise their construction...” A.W. Tillinghast wrote this in an article titled, “The Ideal Course Rugged and Natural,” in the February 1935 issue of Golf Illustrated.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:architects and choice of site
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2007, 02:07:01 PM »
Philip,

Any guesses as to why that is not so much the case these days? Jeff? Tony?

Phil_the_Author

Re:architects and choice of site
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2007, 02:14:19 PM »
Today, so many courses are being built as the "centerpiece" to an entire development whereas in Tilly's day they were being built as actual clubs for members.


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:architects and choice of site
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2007, 02:15:40 PM »
I guess there is also the ability to create good golf ground today...which did not exist to the same degree 80 years ago...

Adam Clayman

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Re:architects and choice of site
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2007, 04:19:26 PM »
Didn't Bobby Jones scour the eastern seaboard for the perfect site for his design?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Kai Hulkkonen

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Re:architects and choice of site
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2007, 05:21:48 PM »
I like Peter's idea of site selection service.

I have once been on the opposite side of the table, where we had an idea for project (currently under construction), but no site, and limited knowledge of the area where we were looking. If I could have used someone professional to do the site search, I would have, but for whatever reason it never occurred to me to hire a golf course architect (btw we are talking about financing by means of residential development). What we did was I gave a list of some desired characteristics to someone local (with no understanding of golf) and he started a search. We acquired an area with some drawbacks, and once we had chosen an architect, brought him over and got his approval (of course).

Now, 3 years and some $$$ later, I believe that the way architect could contribute would be by:

1. Telling what it will cost to build here (in comparison to other possible parcels. Without a realistic set of figures, all talk is just BS). I believe that to do that, one needs a good understanding of each site, local area and costs associated with construction.

2. A list of other aspects we should consider (time to build, future maintenance, etc.), both cost and revenue side.

What would a gca charge for a job like this? Would you do it without promise of ever designing the course?

The general area we're talking about is 150 by 100 km. Number of possible properties between 10 and 20.

Kai

JMorgan

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Re:architects and choice of site
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2007, 06:42:08 PM »
Yes it would, but it doesn't happen more than say, 10% of the time.

I was consulted on the site of the Quarry at Giants Ridge, only because I had designed the first course, and they needed to buy the land for the second.

I can think of a few others "either or" scenarios I have been involved in, as well as a few "what part of our land do we put the course on" scenarios, but of 50 new courses, I have only had site input on about 5.

Jeff, what kinds of courses were those 5?  

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:architects and choice of site
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2007, 07:14:29 PM »
I had this theory that my club hired Seth Raynor in 1924 or 1925 to help us find a new site when our club moved from the City Hackensack, where we had a 9-hole Bendelow design, to Oradell where we now have 18 holes built by Banks. I envisioned that our wise leaders carefully searched the farms and fields of the mostly undeveloped North Jersey, using Raynor to help guide us!

Raynor died in January of 1926, we hired Banks in Novemeber of 1926. so if my theory was correct, Raynor mave have routed what Banks built. Wrong!

I went back and read all the old board minutes and microfilm from the local papers. Turns out we were in a huge tax fight with the city of Hackensack, and the 50 members of the 9-hole Kinderkamack Club offered to merge with us in August 1926. We hired an unnamed architect to look at the property, made the deal pretty quickly, and THEN interviewed architects to build "a proper 18 hole course", selecting Banks.

So he was "presented with the site" just like most architects today.

Tony Ristola

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Re:architects and choice of site
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2007, 03:25:37 AM »
Have to say, not thinking of it in this manner per se, that I've been looking for properties with an interested party or two. Identifying future sections that make sense for development. Just didn't occur to me as it's all been done in a fairly casual manner, and discussion has generally gone... "was driving here, or... have you seen this area, or we should look at that." When there's time and the section is deemed excellent, we've made time for a road trip. This isn't normal, but it is optimal. Of course, I'm expecting to build them when the time comes.

Kai,
Costs can differ drastically depending on what the architect has in mind. Some think they have to move a lot of dirt to make a statement (or justify a fee), some think they can use a decent site pretty much as is, and justify their fee by the quality of the product that emerges and the cost-time savings for the developer. For all the talk of minimalism, I haven't seen much (in Europe), and that which has been of minimal nature has generally been uninspiring at best.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2007, 03:37:09 AM by Tony Ristola »

Gary Slatter

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Re:architects and choice of site
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2007, 08:43:06 AM »
Bob Cupp selected the site to build Mad River GC near Creemore Ontario Canada.  When it opened it was outstanding.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:architects and choice of site
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2007, 08:54:12 AM »
Yes it would, but it doesn't happen more than say, 10% of the time.

I was consulted on the site of the Quarry at Giants Ridge, only because I had designed the first course, and they needed to buy the land for the second.

I can think of a few others "either or" scenarios I have been involved in, as well as a few "what part of our land do we put the course on" scenarios, but of 50 new courses, I have only had site input on about 5.

Jeff, what kinds of courses were those 5?  

All different types.  All three resort courses in MN I have done offered me the chance at either full or partial site selection (including what extra land to buy or what part of the reservation to use).  In TX, I helped select a site for the course I did for Grand Prairie (Tangleridge) and then there have been some housing projects where the developer was going to buy one piece of land or the other, including Colbert Hills in KS.

Usually other factors come into play other than what might make the best golf course, and frankly, they are more important in most cases.

Grand Prairie had a lakefront site for lease from a goverment agency or an option to cheaply purchase a foreclosed property from the RTC (circa 1990)  Despite lakefront views, there were flooding problems to deal with (would have occurred this year) plus the cost of the lease.  As a gca, I wanted the lakefront, but the city really couldn't select that one.

In another city case, I was asked to look into adding on property (and where) to expand a land locked course.  Property values (and a desire to get rid of low cost housing and its associated problems) drove the property selection to certain areas, whether it was best golf land or not.

For housing developers, I have been able to direct them one way or another.  Usually, a developer comes with a site in mind for purchase.  In one case here in DFW I told my client to avoid a flood prone site.  Another developer bought it - it was really in a good growth area, and built a nice RTJ II course, that has highly elevated fairways and is really too tough.  

Lesson learned is that even when I select another site, someone else will come in and design a golf course on a tough site with other factors driving the development.  I think that is why gca's are happy to have the client bring the site to them, even if its ideal to have some say in the selection.

Also, within developments, there are a lot of factors on siting the course.  For example, the 7th at Colbert Hills, while spectacular and natural, sits there because the city engineer and developer informed me that this valley was in a different watershed than the city sewer system, and couldn't be connected by gravity, so would I please put a golf hole there when doing the land planning......
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tommy Williamsen

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Re:architects and choice of site
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2007, 11:31:24 AM »
Jeff, how about a course that is in housing development to be.  Does the architect generally have a choice about which parcel of land to use?  I was thinking that some "city planner" might develop the best places to put houses and by default even do some of the routing before the architect gets his hands on the site.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:architects and choice of site
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2007, 12:23:26 PM »
Sometimes we get involved with a prior land plan, but usually I ask to take another run at it, and am usually successful, although there are usually some limitations.  These often make a lot of sense from a development standpoint, including the mention of sewer systems...

I recall one project where before I unrolled my plan, the pres of the Really Huge development company said, "If I see golf holes along that lake instead of houses you can just roll the plan back up...." I didn't even unroll it, and chose to focus the meeting on "goals and objectives." ;)

In most cases, the golf holes go best in the valleys anyway, creating views along the way by virtue of naturally elevating the houses, so many times, the routing isn't a compromise beyond all the houses bordering the fw.  Generally, the routing meanders the entire property through the houses, rather than taking up the south 40.  The exception is when there is a large chunk of floodplain that they want the golf course to use.  Sometimes, that dictates part of a core course, rather than giving up more upland for the golf, because a math analysis shows that they don't get their money back in more lot premiums.

So, they have to be planned together, and I prefer to do the routing, rather than accept a land planners routing, which means I also have to figure out the basic road pattern to the various areas, and not just to shorten up green to tee walks, but that is a factor.

The land planners, marketing gurus, and site conditions - like where traffic comes from, where water and sewer come from, etc. to tend to set some broad parameters.  Planned land use, does too, since there is usally a program for X acres of commercial, multi family, single family, school sites, etc. need to be worked into the plan.

Its like doing jig saw puzzles and getting paid for it!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach