The best US desert courses

[Peter Goss]

I have a particular interest in desert golf courses and am considering a tour of some of the best US desert courses. Could I please have an opinion as to which 5 perhaps are considered by this group as the most worthy to visit?
I would appeciate comments on architectural merit, ambiance and "feel" of the resort - that the visitor is somewhere special and tha golf is an absolute pleasure. I have seen brochures on Boulder - how does it really stack up?

[David Wigler]

Peter,

You ask a great question that we have kicked around here for over a year.  Can a desert course be great?  Which are the best.  In my mind, Shadow Creek is #1 with a gap.  The Palms in Palm Springs is #2 with a gap.  #3 is SouthShore in Las Vegas, #4 is PGA West Stadium.  After those four, there are several that I group close together - (In no specific Order) Talking Stick North, Troon North (#5 for sure before the housing), Chiracua at Desert Mountain, Troon G&CC, Country Club of the Desert, Wolf at Paiute, Reflections Bay and others.  

The interesting thing is that the clear numbers 1 & 2 are in the desert but are they desert courses?  Neither incorporates any desert features and both are fully sodded with rough.  Is a desert course a course that is in the desert or a course that incorporates sand waste areas and dunes.  If it is the later, than Pine Valley, Cypress Point and Dunes Club are certainly more desert than Shadow Creek or The Palms.

Hope this helps.

[Paul Richards]

David:

I would add Estancia, Mirabel and Apache Stronghold to your list.

[Gene Greco]

  Apache Stronghold in Globe, AZ and designed by Tom Doak should be one of the five. Fun, strategic design and a real cool routing through the desert terrain.

  Great vistas throughout in a somewhat isolated location.

   One of the finest set of greens anyplace in THE WORLD more than compensates for not so ideal condition of the fairways in some spots.

    One of Americas greatest golfing bargains in terms of quality of the golf course and extras vs cost. Cost me $89 to play, room for the night, drinks in the bar and two meals.

    My recommendation for play at a private venue is Desert Forest in Scottsdale a 1962 Red Lawrence design.

    A stern test which breaks the backs of the wayward drivers of the golf ball. Greens are flawless with great speed, trueness and subtlety.

     Low key club setting without all the fanfare adds to charm. The club emphasizes the golf course which is as it should be.

[David Wigler]

Paul,

If those three are missing from my list, it is because I have not played any of the three.  I hope to play Estancia and Apache Stronghold late this fall.

[Matt_Cohn]

Not to be picky but don't consider Shadow Creek a desert course. Anything that had 25,000 mature pine trees when it opened is not a desert course!!!

That said, I've played a lot of these. My list:

PGA West - Stadium - been talked about lots, i love it.
Talking Stick - different and brilliant, very fun.
The Gallery (outside Tucson) - teriffic holes plus ambience.
Apache Stronghold - talked about lots too.
Landmark - South - this is a really, really good course with some absolutely first-class holes.

Hon. Mention: Primm Valley - Desert - Fazio with some striking scenery, PGA West - Norman - like all Norman courses, lots going on around the greens, totally different than anything in the area.

Troon North has too many houses. Grayhawk is fun but doesn't quite rank with those others. I haven't played or seen the private Scottsdale ones. Vistoso in Tucson is really good unless the houses have hurt it. I stopped early at Tucson's Raven because I was kinda bored. Phoenix's Raven is not a desert course.

Others you probably can't play: Bighorn, especially Fazio's Canyons. Hopefully Doak's course in that area will go forward. Also, Fazio's Quarry at La Quinta has always fascinated me - the pictures look awesome.

David Wigler - tell us about the Palms?

[Peter Goss]

Very informative thank you - I was particularly thinking about desert courses that utilised the natural desert environment rather than wall to wall greenery, waterfalls etc. Noone has mentioned Boulder so far- is it any good?

[David Wigler]

Peter - I missed you part on the Boulders.  The courses are visually striking.  Great desert scenery.  Nothing new to the state of architecture.  Good overall desert courses.

Matt - I do not disagree with your assessment of Shadow Creek.  That is why I questioned what defines a desert course.  If Shadow does not fall into the desert category, than The Palms will not either.  It is by far the best Curley / Schmidt effort I have seen (And I really liked Crosby National).  It is a very private club near PGA West in the Palm Desert.  Everything is sodded and there is no desert topography.  They course has a natural wash that has been converted into a stream and is incorporated throughout the course.  10-12 is as demanding a stretch of par 4's as I have ever played.  The routing is special and it is one of the few desert courses that encourage walking.  The green complexes are very strong and C / S show off their greatest strength (The selection of green sites).  The course offers a great variety of short and long holes and matches direction and distance very well.  Especially impressive is the demands and challenges placed on approach shots.  C /S did by far their best work on landing areas for tee shots and differing demands for approaches.  This course will definitely attain top 100 status in one of the magazines.  All that written, is it a desert course?  I do not think so.

[Lou Duran]

Desert Forest is a true desert course, across the street from the Boulders complex.  As Gene noted, low-key, but all golf.  No lateral hazards off the fairway (find it and play it or re-tee), no "imported" water themes, no extraneous eye candy.   Hole corridors meander through the desert landscape replete with huge native saguaro cacti and some Joshua trees.  DF provides an authentic desert experience including snakes (didn't see any), rabbits, Gambil quail, and various other wildlife.  Late afternoon/early evening golf is particularly rewarding.  The course probably belongs in the underrated category.  If you venture to the backtees (under 7,000 yards), be sure to bring your A game.

[brad_miller]

Palmer's The Tradition?, Fazio Quarry? and Michelson's course in Scottsdale? Anyone play them  that can compare to DF and AS.

[A_Clay_Man]

Peter- Your question raises questions on what you like. So far, you've clarified the courses should be desert-like. Do you also want the amenities? Do you prefer challenge? options? green grass? or a hint of brown??

My suggestions would be;( in no particular order)
Wolf Run- Reno, Nv.
Arrowhead Creek (?) - Reno Nv.
Pinon Hills- New Mexico
Paa-Ko Ridge- New Mexico

There are some others I could sugggest, depending on your preferences, But these all have desert landscapes and utilize it where apropriate.

[Dan Grossman]

I had the good fortune to play Desert Forest not too long ago.  The golf course is really neat.  It is what I would consider to be "Desert Golf."  If you miss the fairway, you have to contend with Sand, prickly pears and other cacti.  The best part of Desert Forest is the natural rolling fairways that force you to think about position off the tee.

I am not sure that the some of the other courses mentioned, I would consider to be "Desert Golf."  I feel like you could move them to some other place and the golf course wouldn't lose that much of its character.  I loved Talking Stick, but I don't think it is desert golf.

The Boulders is awful.  It is a pretty uninteresting golf course and has one of the worst routings I have ever seen.  Thank god we had a cart.

[Peter Goss]

Fascinating stuff on the Boulders - it looks great on the website but the value the GCA opinion assists significantly on decision making.
My rating value would be as follows:
1. Architecturally superior, interesting course with strategic challenge
2. Incorporates desert in the strategic element of the course introducing aspects of the terrain that are not available elsewhere
3. Engenders a feeling that I played golf in the desert, not the botanic gardens of the Amazon or the flower show of London. (A new course in Dubai goes to extremes to make you feel you are NOT in the desert!)
4. Provides amenities that blend with a fine day on the course, allow some feeling of being unobtrusively pampered and continue to create a feeling that you are still in a special and unique part of the world.

[A_Clay_Man]

Peter- It's the #4 criterior that gets me out of the game of suggesting. Since most of my experience is Public, the amenities are usually sparce which translates to emphasis on the golf course. Which I like.

Paa-Ko Ridge will quailfy for most cept for the desert-like terrain, because it is really in the sandia mountains, just out of Albuqurque.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

The Plantation in Indio deserves an honorary mention for it understated charm and natural Date orchard feel.

[Joel_Stewart]

A new course in Scottsdale called Whisper Rock is my favorite in Arizona.  Its architect is Phil Mickelson and the bunkering is in the style of San Francisco Golf Club.  Its normally a walking course with caddies.

[wdaspin]

Estancia certainly has one of the most beautiful locations in all the desert, circling around Pinnacle Peak.

A new course that's a lot of fun is Bear's Best in Las Vegas.  Re-creations of some of Jack's best holes from different courses like PGA West, Cabo Del Sol, Desert Highlands, Bear Creek, Old Works (with imported black sand) and Castle Pines (with imported pine trees).  It's a Club Corp. course and has a sister course that just opened in Atlanta.  

[David Wigler]

Bill,

Thanks for bringing up Bears Best.  I was so ready to dislike it and ended up enjoying it.  You are right, it is a very fun course to play.  I especially liked the long par 3 from Old Works.  I do not think this course makes any significant contribution to the field of golf architecture but it sure makes for a fun 4 1/2 hours and is well worth playing.

[wdaspin]

David,

Glad to hear you enjoyed Bears Best.  I too was unsure when I first got there, but the setting is very nice with some good elevation changes and a great variety of holes that keep it interesting.  

I see your are a Blue supporter.  I recently was in Detroit and was able to play Oakland Hills, both South & North which were both great as expected.  However, the big surprise was playing Radrick Farms which I thought was as pure a golf course as I've played.  Nothing fancy but solid and interesting.   Apparently that is Pete Dye's first course?  

[Anthony_Nysse]

Radrick Farms is a course that Pete designed because he designed Harbour Town. It was in the era of The Golf Club, early to mid 60's

[Mark_Fine]

The definition of a desert course is subjective.  Would anyone here consider a course like Indian Wells (one of the courses where they play the Bob Hope) a desert course?  Personally, I would not!

Desert Forest has always been one of my favorites.  I enjoy many of the others mentioned above.  But, other than Shadow Creek (which is more a North Carolina mountains course than anything), I give very few of the desert courses above much higher than a 7!  

[David Wigler]

Bill,

Radrick is a lot of fun.  It is the first course Pete Dye was paid a fee to design.  It has all his old tricks.  What did you think of Oakland Hills North?  It gets very mixed reviews.

[mike_beene]

OK,I'll express what 93% of the group is thinking about Bears Best: "What kind of green fee do they charge for a three hole course?"

[wdaspin]

David,

Oakland Hills North seemed a bit like the executive version of the South course.  I think they had less land to work with and so some of the holes felt a little shoehorned in.  The rough was not near as tough as the South course and I don't recall any real memorable holes unlike the South.  It's like the South course at Los Angeles CC, a nice place to work on your game but a tough act to follow when compared to the course across the street.

For Mike, the cost of Bears Best was $185 I believe in season.  Fortunately I belong to a Club Corp course so the only fee was for the cart (which is mandatory) plus $30 for the forecaddie.  I'm not sure I understand your sarcasm re: the "3 hole course"?  One of the things I judge a course on is the memorability of the holes after you've played it.  I found Bears Best to be very memorable.  Playing golf in Vegas is expensive but probably less so than spending 5 hours at the tables!

[mike_beene]

Bill,My three hole reference was a poor attempt to point out that many think that Nicklaus probably only designed three holes worth repeating.Actually I felt guilty last night about the comment and apologize to Nicklaus if he is lurking,because that is not my view.I don't want to get off the subject,but I like most of his courses that I have played(Breckenridge,both Dallas Athletic Club courses,PGA west and especially the Four Seasons course on the big island,which is really a desert course with wind)By the way I used to think the monument course at Troon North was beautiful.The houses really hurt.Not a Nicklaus course but at least I got back to the subject.