[Steve_ Shaffer]

Since this thread needs updating and some new courses have been built and others renovated in the interim, here are my thoughts:

The recent work by Forrest Richardson at Wigwam Gold and Biltmore Adobe should not be missed by those who are visiting.

Papago should be played before it closes in May for renovation.

Vista Verde is also a must play. It is closed now as the housing infrastructure is being constructed. It will reopen early 2008.

If you can gain access, Engh's Blackstone is worth a play. It's not as dramatic as Lakota Canyon or Pradera, but is very good.

As always, if you can gain access to Desert Forest, it's the must play in the area. It's a very special place.

I will be snowbirding in AZ in February and March so I'm developing a list of courses to play in the PHX area and hope to meet the locals there for a game or two.

[Mark Smolens]

Mr. S, what do you think of the Raven at Verrado?  Does it fall on your list of places to play?  I thought it was very playable and fun, and their unlimited golf deal was a bargain.  From all the way back it's a good test, with a number of difficult looking tee shots -- that ended up with more room than you thought from the tee -- but from the forward tees there is only one forced carry over the desert (my mother doesn't like those!).  I've found it well worth the drive from downtown Scottsdale (go toward Estrella Mountain and keep going).  Course condition has always been good.

And probably more importantly for some, very cute cart girls!

[Forrest Richardson]

Steve — That is realllllll positive thinking about Papago actually closing in May. My guess is that the closure will be delayed due to some very real hurdles being imposed by several groups. Unfortunately, it (the renovation selection process) is a mess.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Forrest

In any event, Papago is a must play,at least for those in this group, wouldn't you agree?

Mark,

Yes, Raven at Verrado is among those on my list to play again. When I played there before, the housing was just being built so I'm sure, despite the housing slowdown, there will be more housing. I did like the course although it is a trek if you're staying in Scottsdale. I do know the second course there is on hold.

[Mark Smolens]

Almost forgot to second your recommendation of Vista Verde, but only if you can play a little.  I got on for a p.m. round after Tonto Verde last winter and had a great time.  Greens were very firm (I don't think the course had been open that long), and very severe.  There were a number of people, mostly couples, coming off the course as we arrived who looked like they had been through a ringer -- my only thought was that those wives were not interested in joining that course as it was going to be way too hard for them.

As for Mr. Richardson's recent work at Wigwam and the Biltmore, I think those will need to wait until non-high season unless they have some kind of deal for AZ residents.  The $$ they charge snowbirds to play golf in the Vally is absurd.

[Forrest Richardson]

I think Papago is a must play. Too bad much of the quality is gone. But, it is a great Wm F. Bell design. I would say one of his very best (thanks in part to Jack Snyder, who oversaw construction.)

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Mark

Try golfnow.com for lower prices.

Forrest

What about this Coldwater course? I hear it's an interesting course.

It's on my list.

[Forrest Richardson]

Coldwater is very likable. Housing on all holes, but it is a bargain and there are lots of options and unique holes. We added 5 bunkers this summer...grand total is now 26!

[Andy Troeger]

Because I have a place to stay (Mom's), I'm in Scottsdale once a month in the winter.  I get the Troon pass because I love Troon North, but can't stomach paying $275 to play golf.  Wondering if anyone out there has any thoughts on the re-routing of the two courses at Troon North?

I never played either course at Troon North until playng the "New Pinnacle" a month ago. It appeared that the routing is improved at least on that course from the changes. The other course I guess would still have nine holes on one side of the road and then the other nine on the other, so I'm not sure how well that works.

[Matt_Ward]

The thing to keep in mind is that high quality public golf is really not AZ's strongest suit. Oh, there are a few of note (e.g. Troon North, Apache Stronghold, etc, etc) but many are tied to real estate connections and many of them are opting for the private side of the ledger even though they may start out as public in order to build awareness and cash flow.

[Tom Yost]

I did get to play the Raven @ Verrado this summer and was pleasantly surprised.  It's a Fought/Lehman with lots of enjoyable holes that take advantage of the terrain and natural features.  Most holes have options for reaching the green via the ground game and the firm and fast conditions allowed a variety of shots.  

Number eight plays uphill around a huge rock outcropping that juts into the fairway and tempts one to try to cut the corner with a blind carry over the desert.  #13 seems to be a love or hate type of hole - 310 yds straight uphill to a green that pitches back into the mountain and has a false front that totally creates an optical illusion.  The 14th tee of the 184 yd drop shot par 3 offers a tremendous view of the entire valley spread out below.  

It is part of a real estate development and probably not a great walking course, but the playing corridors are generous which makes the surrounding housing not seem too closed in.

The Raven @ Verrado is in my top 3 favorite of the new courses I played this year (along with We-Ko-Pa Saguaro and Apache Stronghold).

Tom

[Andy Troeger]

The thing to keep in mind is that high quality public golf is really not AZ's strongest suit. Oh, there are a few of note (e.g. Troon North, Apache Stronghold, etc, etc) but many are tied to real estate connections and many of them are opting for the private side of the ledger even though they may start out as public in order to build awareness and cash flow.

Personally I've also found that many of my favorite courses in AZ are up in the mountains as opposed to the valley (have yet to get to Tucson). Its amazing for a native midwesterner to think you can go from Flagstaff to Phoenix and have such a vast climate difference. Heck, going from Flagstaff to Sedona is quite a climate difference. Payson to Phoenix would be somewhat the similar situation. Those are pretty much all private clubs too though...

Forest Highlands Canyon and Meadow, The Rim, Chaparral Pines, and Seven Canyons are all among the best in the state IMO. I haven't seen Pine Canyon or Flagstaff Ranch but have heard positive things about them as well, especially Pine Canyon.

Unfortunately pretty much all of those have some real estate component to them as well, but the homes are much easier to hide due to the heavily treed lots.

[Mark Smolens]

I'm not so sure that the Valley cannot be described as having a broad range of quality public access golf.  Though its conditioning has fallen off since my dad used to play there in U.S. Open qualifiers, and the folks in charge seem to be having major disputes of the manner in which the upgrade/ renovation/restoration (or whatever they want to call it) will occurr, Papago is a wonderful layout.  With my Troon Twosome pass I can play 36 holes at Talking Stick (the North course is fabulous), 36 holes at Whirlwind (both courses are very nice, excellent conditioned, and walkable), Estrella Mountain (may be intended to be private some day, but certainly not now or for some time in the future).  Dove Valley Ranch is fun.  I think you can go on and on. . .

[Andy Troeger]

Mark,
There certainly are good public courses in the Valley, but I think the point Matt was making and that I would agree with is that there are  private clubs that are a notch above most of the public venues.

I wasn't that impressed with Estrella Mountain Ranch when I played it a few years ago. Papago is my favorite of the ones you mentioned. I really think Gold Canyon Dinosaur Mountain is one that's overlooked because it is a little bit outside of the valley itself. SunRidge Canyon is also fun to play in Fountain Hills. There are a ton of options and something for everyone which does make it a winter destination except for the value issues.

[Mark Smolens]

But Andy, isn't that true just about anywhere?  I'm sure Bethpage is fabulous, but does it really reach the level of Shinnecock or NGL?  I certainly don't dispute the fact that there are more great private clubs in the Valley, but unlike most of the people who read this site, I don't have access to them.  But I do try to make my winters a little shorter by going to visit Mom once a month in the winter, and I frankly do not believe that there is anywhere else in the country that gives me access to great publicly available golf courses (whether resort or simply public, or courses with insufficiently subscribed membership so I can still get on) than the greater Valley of the Sun.

As for Estrella Mtn, I would agree that at times I've played when there were conditioning issues, and it would be a very tough course to walk, but it is visually compelling in a large number of places, and though a desert course, they do not force those playing from the forward tees to make huge carries across the desert (which permits me to take my mother there).  

I've heard tons of people raving about Dinosaur Mtn, so I would question whether it gets overlooked,and it's certainly nice, and the SunRidge/Eagle Mountain entries in Fountain Hills are also nice, but if I'm going that far I'll continue down Shea to the Beeline and play Cholla or Saguaro (which could be for me the best public access course in the State!).  Besides, the 7:00 hold 'em tournment at the casino every nite is fun too.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy / Mark:

The reality is that much of AZ golf is tied to the private side. In candid terms, it's not much different than New York State although I will say that the variety of public courses is better in the Grand Canyon State than The Empire State.

The M.O. for many AZ clubs is to be available to the public initially when housing has not sold. This serves as the entry to getting people to buy property and once that has happened to eventually go private and for the original investment team to sell the club to the members and move on from there. In other instances the original investment team may still provide access on a semi-private basis.

AZ is not really a public course haven in terms of national courses of real distinction. People can mention a few of the ones in the greater Valley area but more often than not they are tied to real estate situations and the like.

[Andy Troeger]

Mark,
That's the case in many areas but by no means all. 8 of the top 10 couses in New Mexico are public, and at least half of the best 15 or so in Indiana are public (although the top 4-5 are private). If you look at the top 25 in AZ I would guess maybe 4-5 are public courses, so compared to some other areas its not as balanced as some. The Northeast is that way as well admittedly.

I do agree We-Ko-Pa compares well with anything in the valley public or private and is well worth the drive to Fountain Hills. I don't think Dinosaur Mountain is overlooked locally but I meant that here on GCA it does not get much mention. I like it much better than any public I've seen in the area except Saguaro. Vista Verde is close.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

The maturation of the AZ golf market versus that of NM is two entirely DIFFERENT PLACES. The former has been in development for quite some time and has benefited immensely from the flood of people leaving the greater SoCal area.

NM is still the frontier for many people and as a result golf development there has been much slower to mature. That's why you can still find public courses which offer very reasonable fees to play. Of course, if you ask the locals they will likely opine that the fees charged now at BM and Paa-Ko are too high. Of course, I would answer that by saying that given what these two courses provide you could easily charge three times that if the same courses were in the immediate valley area of Maricopa County (AZ).

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,

I agree with your point, but all I was saying is that AZ's best are mostly private and NM's are mostly public. I would say your rationale why does have a fair amount to do with it. The casinos are to thank for having much golf in NM at all!

Also no question that a similar quality course in the Valley would be the $250 in the winter type. At least no question in my mind...

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

If and when the golf market matures in NM the desire to move ahead with "gated communities" (along the lines of Las Campanas) will emerge. The slump in the home industry will clearly impact that development and may for some time.

AZ benefits from better weather from the Phoenix area south than nearly all of NM. The winter season is clearly more active for those reasons and the ones you mentioned and as result the facilities in AZ can bump up the price points to obscene levels given the desire of people to be there and pay the freight. The NM golf market, fortunately, has not seen the corresponding rise of prices -- yet.

[Tony Petersen]

I had the pleasure of walking the new Champions Course at the TPC. What a change from the previous Desert course! Good use of the land, FUN greens (though slow coming out of overseed) and the easiest walk to be had in AZ as fas as I'm concerned

Oh, and the rate for walking is the same for both residents and non-residents. Twilight starts at 1 and I paid a mere $25 to walk

[Steve_ Shaffer]

TonyP

Thanks for the info on TPC Champions. It's on my list to play in February and March when I'm there.

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