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Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« on: November 24, 2007, 05:31:44 PM »
Amidst the nauseatingly universal adulation for the Auld Sod, there's actually much to dislike about her.

Yeah, there's the 'history'. Yawn...
Yeah, there's the 'architectural merit'. Ho-hum...
Yeah, there's the whole 'birthplace of golf' thing. Patently unproveable and quite likely, at the very least, contrary to the guidelines of the Advertising Standards Authority.

So, okay, a few pro golfers have won a few Open Championships around her. Bwah, bwah, bwah. Tiger never even SAW a bunker.

The Rev Williamsen's thread got me to a-thinkin':
"Shall we play a game?" (Pop culture ref #1). Let's define what's seriously WRONG with The Old Course.

I'll start with a couple of my own:
1. Blindness off the Tee: Wayyyyy too much. Let me see my ball land, run and finish. Sound Familiar?
2. NO CART GIRLS: I'd be happy to purchase a fine hot-dog, adult beverage and cuban stogie somewhere out about #8.

Okay, your turn: and keep it SERIOUS, RIGHT!?

FBD.

PS Y'all know I LOVE her, but even Cindy Crawford has a mole.
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The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2007, 05:49:41 PM »
Martin,

Plain and simple, this is heresy  ;)

The Old Course certainly does have her faults in the context of contemporary perspective, expectations, theories, but hey, she's the Old Course. We know better than to nit-pick when it comes to St. Andrews, right!

That said, the routing is clearly flawed. Last time I played at St. Andrews-Old, going out we faced a 40km+ headwind for too many consectuive holes, obviously. Coming back, I hit some extremely long tee shots, downwind, hole after hole... driver/pitching wedge to the Road hole; and, I'm not really a long hitter.

Approach play, downwind, was quite a challenge though!

I hate to admit it but, the Old Course's out-and-back routing forces you to confront the wind at a very similar angle over too many consecutive holes. That's a flaw in an "ideal world".

Still, if I had a tee time at the Old Course everyday for the rest of my life, I'd do my best to show up seven days a week!  
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jeffmingay.com

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2007, 05:52:20 PM »
When a scientific standard is quantified TOC ranks lowest of all the greats.

  ;D
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"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2007, 05:59:05 PM »
Jeff,
supercool.

#3: Flawed Routing.

Potentially unforgiveable on a modern design, the Auld HAG gets away with it solely BECAUSE of her name.

Bee-atch.

Adam,
science be-damned! This is the Kelly LeBrock of GCA. Rip off the Red Dress and be - OBJECTIVE!!!

FBD.
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The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Paul Payne

Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2007, 06:29:56 PM »


How 'bout ancient turf grown from bird shit?
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Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2007, 06:45:41 PM »
Paul,
interesting thought, but not sure if this is really a criticism.

Yes, the landscape, vegetation and playing surface is supported only by the careful cultivation of the thin, wind-blown organic layer upon the sand below, but, surely, this is to be lauded rather than pilloried?

The caring tending of a thin, under-nourished growing medium by skilled keepers of the green utilising organic methodology can only be considered on the positive side of the equation and therefore will be decided moot in this discussion.

Good try, but no cigar.

FBD.
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The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2007, 06:51:18 PM »
Martin,

How about OB right on most of the holes.  Whatever happened to let em play instead of penalizing the slicers.  And as much as overuse of water hazards is hammered in here as poor design, in my view OB is worse.

In addition because many are hitting towards the left side, you need a hard hat on several of the holes.   ;)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2007, 06:51:52 PM by Kalen Braley »
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Paul Payne

Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2007, 07:08:06 PM »
OK then,

So who let them put that sign there?
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Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2007, 07:14:13 PM »
Kalen,
most perceptive indeed. Two to you.

#'s 4 and 5.

#4: Persistent and unremitting right-side OB penalising only ONE particular player (mostly me!). Penal beyond belief. No excuse.

#5: Shared LZ's. What were they thinking? Heckers, there's hunners of acres out there. Had they no foresight? Health and Safety is the prime consideration of ALL modern design. Pity the fool.

Paul,
the Links Trust can do ANYTHING they like. The placing of signs is mere bagatelle. Assimilate or die.

FBD.
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The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2007, 07:19:21 PM »
Don't know if this counts as one or not, but...

The Road hole.  Any archie building something like this today would be run out of town on a pole.

And as much as most on here talk about naturalism and playing golf on gods green earth as was intended, then why is the paved road on the 1st, 17th, and 18th holes considered "apart" of the golf course?
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2007, 07:29:29 PM »
OB right?  No problemo, hit it left off every tee -- and then be prepared to deal with one awkward approach after another.  ;)
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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2007, 07:34:43 PM »
Martin....beat that drum! :o ;D ;) :)
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2007, 07:38:33 PM »
CrikeyReilly Kalen,
you're on a roll!:
#6: 17th - nonsensical routing. Deliberately force play over a populated building full of the richest people on the planet on holiday. MADNESS!

#7: ROADS!: My GCA playing so-called 'friends' made me play off the tarmac of Grannie Clark's Wynd. Eedjits. ;D

Careful you're forever ex-communicated from the playing of TOC!

Uncle Wull,
playing left is never any solution. Just ask the English Football Team!

Cowley-sama,
fun's fun, and a man's a man for a' that. The snare is a fine trap... ;)

FBD.
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The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2007, 07:51:57 PM »
Martin,

I almost forgot...how about the criss cross routing on 11 and number 6?  or is it 7?

Would anyone today build a set of two holes where players must criss cross in front of each other?  Now those same rich people staying in the hotel on 17 must face double jeopardy playing these two holes.

And yet another for my American friends.  For as much bitching as I hear about people who don't like those Christmas trees on golf courses over here, isn't gorse just as bad?  Hit your ball in that stuff and you are guranteed two things...you ain't finding it, and you ain't going in there looking for it.  At least with a christmas tree you have a chance of finding it and taking an unplayable instead of the dreaded lost ball which is just as bad as the OB penalty.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2007, 07:54:56 PM by Kalen Braley »
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Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2007, 07:55:56 PM »
Marshalls seem to set a low bar which the rest of the world stays below. Their part in the increasingly abusive pricing by the UK courses. Otherwise I love the place. Ok get the ladies putting course back from whoever is managing it now.
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Sam Morrow

Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2007, 07:58:06 PM »
The Old Course is great because like people it's flawed.
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Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2007, 08:02:49 PM »
Ok Kalen,
I'm definitely giving you #8: Crossing holes (7/11, by the way). Inexcusable, inconsiderate design which is clearly dangerous, ill-conceived and time-wasting in equal measure. Shame, shame, shame, shame on you.

No #9 on the Gorse however ain't happening. It hardly really comes into play for all but the most pathetic of golfers. They should really be playing the Balgove anyway and deserve everything they get. TOC caddies also make a pretty good living out of finding ProVI's in all that herbaceous border... ;)

John,
the ladies course is always sacrosanct. Steer clear or suffer the consequences.. :)

Sam,
flaws are what we are about. Please elucidate... ;)


FBD.
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The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2007, 08:03:26 PM »
Sam,

There are far, far, far more courses more flawed than TOC, but I don't see any love for them... ;)
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Sam Morrow

Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2007, 08:08:13 PM »
Quote from: Martin Glynn Bonnar on November 24, 2007, 08:02:49 PM
Ok Kalen,
I'm definitely giving you #8: Crossing holes (7/11, by the way). Inexcusable, inconsiderate design which is clearly dangerous, ill-conceived and time-wasting in equal measure. Shame, shame, shame, shame on you.

No #9 on the Gorse however ain't happening. It hardly really comes into play for all but the most pathetic of golfers. They should really be playing the Balgove anyway and deserve everything they get. TOC caddies also make a pretty good living out of finding ProVI's in all that herbaceous border... ;)

John,
the ladies course is always sacrosanct. Steer clear or suffer the consequences.. :)

Sam,
flaws are what we are about. Please elucidate... ;)


FBD.

I have not had the pleasure of playing the Old Course but read what I can about it, I've always looked at that wonderful old course as a living thing, with many personalities (see the Scottish weather). That and I thought my line was very poetic. :D
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Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2007, 08:16:43 PM »
Sam,
dear boy. Your obviously circumstantial evidence is welcomed, yet must remain only, 'evidence for the defence'.

One day, you will be possesed of the gift of 'total vision'. A gift, indeed, which is so limited to so few GCAers. If only they were aware of their limitations... ;)

FBD.
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The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2007, 08:46:10 PM »
Martin,

Not sure where this fits in, but IIRC the course is closed on Sundays.  Other than a few additional variable costs in labor to work that day, everything else is fixed costs.  To throw away 1/7ths of your potential revenue seems absolutly crazy...but maybe thats just the yank way of seeing things.

If the powers that be who run the course really are greedy codgers then how has this not been changed years ago?  At almost $300 a pop, in prime summer season...thats an awful lots of lost opportunities and cashola to be flushing down the loo!!!
« Last Edit: November 24, 2007, 08:47:09 PM by Kalen Braley »
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mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2007, 09:27:11 PM »
The New course is not out of bounds,is it?From 2 thru 12 is not ob right .I will nominate 12 as a hole where you can walk into a blind fairway bunker and a hole with no real fairway.I dare any architect to copy that one.
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2007, 09:49:43 PM »
Quote from: mike_beene on November 24, 2007, 09:27:11 PM
The New course is not out of bounds,is it?From 2 thru 12 is not ob right .I will nominate 12 as a hole where you can walk into a blind fairway bunker and a hole with no real fairway.I dare any architect to copy that one.

Mike, last time I played #12 my caddy, the inimitable Bruce Sorley, suggested I drive maybe 30 degrees off line to the right out toward the Eden course.  Great advice.  No bunkers, very light rough, second shot right down the axis of the lower tier.  

Still managed a 3-putt bogey..... >:(
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Sam Morrow

Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2007, 10:03:27 PM »
Quote from: Martin Glynn Bonnar on November 24, 2007, 08:16:43 PM
Sam,
dear boy. Your obviously circumstantial evidence is welcomed, yet must remain only, 'evidence for the defence'.

One day, you will be possesed of the gift of 'total vision'. A gift, indeed, which is so limited to so few GCAers. If only they were aware of their limitations... ;)

FBD.

I can only dream of that day my friend.
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mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:TOC: the Case for the Prosecution
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2007, 11:20:19 PM »
Bill,I have gone right also.Of course,my inability to keep a putt on the upper shelf makes my line of play matter little.FBD,I would guess I have 13 or 14 rounds on TOC;but it is confusing enough(particularly holes 2 thru 7) that I feel my evidence is only circumstantial also.
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