[Clark]

Enough about Doak the critic -- how about Doak the architect?  It is easy to criticize others' work and talk a good game, but can this man produce?  I have played only two of his courses (Stonewall and Beechtree) and have mixed feelings.  Stonewall is very good, with interesting green complexes and a lot of excellent holes (4-6, 8, 15, 16, 18).  I understand he inherited the routing from Fazio, so that probably explains some of the awkwardness (e.g., having to force the 9th across the corner of the pond -- haven't I played that hole somewhere else?).Beechtree was disappointing, but perhaps my expectattions were too high after Stonewall.  On paper Beechtree fit what he preaches -- low  profile work with little earth movement and good, interesting green complexes.  However, it just doesn't come together.  I don't know if the reason is he was acutely aware of wanting to make this daily-fee course playable for all sorts of players and the property wasn't inspiring.  I'm sure he felt much more restricted than at Stonewall.  It just seems to lack inspiration.I would be interested to hear the comments of others who have played these two as well as any others of Doak's.

[Russell Wyatt]

I live in Richmond, VA anmd have only played Beechtree and his Myrtle Beach course at the Legends. The Legends was great fun with some gigantic greens that are easily three puttable with sloppy approach shots. I really liked that course for its openess.Beachtree was a disappoint in that the greens were much more "normal" - there was nothing  fancy.I hope his new course in Suffolk is more original than Beechtree.

[Ted_Sturges]

Clark, I've played all of Doak's courses except Charlotte, the new one in Va. and the new one in AZ (although I will visit Apache Stronghold in October).Regarding your comments on Stonewall:  Yes, he got to see Fazio's routing, but he made changes to this original plan.  Your comment of Fazio doing something "quirky" was puzzling.  He is about as predictable as anyone in the business.  Tom is the king of quirk.  Tell me a Fazio course that has a front 8 and a back 10?  I like Stonewall as much as you do, but the credit goes to Tom and his team for what is good about it.Regarding your comments on Beechtree:  I will tell you that Tom allowed some other very talented people who work for him (Bruce Hepner, Jim Urbina, and Tom Mead) a great deal of input on this course.  I really like Beechtree, and I appreciate the work of Tom's team.  I think the 8th hole there is one of Renaissance golf's best par 5 holes anywhere.  What makes the course different from other Doak courses is the lack of "quirkyness" in my opinion.  I believe that this is because several of the guys on Tom's team had input there, and they appear to be more "mainstream" than Tom in their approach the the Renaissance minimalistic style.  But, I would urge you to play the course again.  I really like it a great deal (I played it more than once, and walked it without playing once).  I actually rank it higher in my personal course rankings than Stonewall (don't ridicule me Ran!).  A must see is Lost Dunes Golf Club in Bridgman, Michigan (close to the Indiana border).  It has a set of greens wilder than High Pointe, if full of "quirkyness", and is, at this point, my favorite golf course of the Renaissance golf menu.

[Clark]

Ted: Thanks for your comments.  I must say I am in shock that you prefer Beechtree to Stonewal, but maybe I should give Beechtree another chance.I didn't say the routing at Stonewall was "quirky" -- I said it was awkward.  The first 8 holes flow nicely, but then the course seems to lose any sense of "rhythm."  Maybe it's because Doak doesn't resort to awful mounding like Rees et al, but several holes on the back just seem to wander around with no real "flow."  I know the openness contributes to this perception, but it can't be helped.  Is it just me, or does the 14th look like the 15th and 18th at awful TPC at Avenel?  While individually 9-14 may be decent holes, when taken together they don't quite do the job, and to my mind that lies with the routing.

[John Morrissett]

I have been fortunate enough to have played a number of Tom Doak's designs and would rank them as follows: (1) High Pointe, (2) Stonewall, (3) Wilderness Valley, (4)Riverfront, (5) Legends (Heathland), (6) Beechtree, (7) Charlotte Golf Links.I agree to some extent with Clark.  One thing that sets Tom above others is his boldness (perhaps what Ted calls his "quirkiness"), and Beechtree is not a bold course.  Examples include the 10th and 13th at High Pointe; the 5th and 18th at Stonewall; the 2nd and 12th at Wilderness Valley; the 3rd and 9th at Riverfront.  In these days of "playability," it is great to see someone who will give golf courses an "attitude."  With Tom's work one hardly ever says "Oh, not another version of Hole #43g from the design drawer!"  Each course has its own character, just as each pice of land has its own character.  There are no "trademarks" -- just recurring general themes such as little earth movement, superior routing and thoughtful green complexes.I hear that Lost Dunes and Apache Stronghold are super and supsect one of them will replace High Pointe as #1.  

[Ted_Sturges]

Ok, if John gets to rank the Doak courses he's played, then I'm going to do the same (when did you get to play the course in Virginia?).My list would be:1.  Lost Dunes2.  High Pointe

[Ted_Sturges]

Ooops, pushed the wrong button, and posted before finished.  My list:1.  Lost Dunes2.  High Pointe3.  Wilderness Valley  (Michigan wins!)4.  Beechtree5.  Stonewall6.  Legends (Heathland)7.  Quail Crossing

[Ran Morrissett]

Ted,Beachtree ahead of Stonewall???!!I think you hurt more than your leg in your skiing accident.I haven't played either but that doesn't stop me from charging in with an uninformed opinion.  Based on comments from the younger Morrissett brothers and relatives-in-law, I have concerns regarding your mental capacity. Your only redeeming trait is having Wilderness placed nice and high.

[Slag_Bandoon]

 Happened across this old thread...I wonder if these intra-Doak course rankings have changed since July of 1999. Hmmm. . . Naaah!! Is this Doak guy still in the business?

[ForkaB]

SlagI have only played a very small number of Doak courses and would rank them as follows:1.  Pacific DunesSlainteRich

[Slag_Bandoon]

Rich, I sadly have only played that one called Pacific Dunes as well. So, I must agree that it is the best one he has done. We'll have to do some more research to get the true value of this upstart Doak, don't you think? Carpe niblick !  

[Ran Morrissett]

It's nice to see that I'm still uniformed as I've yet to see Stonewall - perhaps my good friend Ted is right after all   ?

[Tim_Weiman]

Slag:Pretty cool of you to notice the original date of this thread.  Hell, I thought it was in response to John MacMillan's "mainstream" thread!Too bad Clark is not still around.  I'm wondering where he got the idea that it was "easy to criticize other's work"??

[Bill Brightly]

Wow, here is interesting old thread!

Guess Tom showed 'em!

[SPDB]

What's interesting about it?

[JESII]

That on Ran's precedent we are now able to distinguish between courses we have not seen...take that Mucci!

[David Botimer]

Read the entire thread only to realize dates on postings pre Pacific Dunes.   Ding Ding Ding, I think we have a new #1 for Doak!

[Norbert P]

Is this Doak guy still in the business?

David B, the folks in Tasmania may have something to say about what's #1.

Can't help giggling that I was a "Guest". I thought I was more of a crasher.  Since then, therapy and proper medication hasga mrphled nawg snorphld mog.

[Joe Bausch]

Maybe we can revive this thread in a couple of years after Bandon Dunes, Part 4, opens.  Gosh, that sure is plenty of pressure to take on that project.

I've only played four TomD courses, and my rankings surely surprise few:  1.  PD.  2.  Stonewall.  3.  Beechtree.  4.  Quail Crossing.

On this T-giving morning, perhaps some would like a reminder of how nice fall golf in the mid-Atlantic area can be.  Yesterday it was 65° so I revisited Beechtree after only playing there previously right after it opened.  It had rained like heck here earlier in the week so the course was soggy, but still playable.  Very playable, in fact, but awfully long.  Rather than post select pictures, which is difficult to choose b/c of the number of very fine holes, I'll just post the link to my Galerie display of the 100+ photos:

http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/Beechtree/index.html

I also prepared two QuickTime VR movies.  This one gives a nice view of the 10th hole and the surrounding area, including the clubhouse and 18th green:

http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/btree_pana1.mov

And this QTVR was shot from short of the 8th green, so lots of the course is viewable, the best being the par 3 2nd over water:

http://darwin.chem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/btree_pana2.mov

I think my favorite hole might be 14th.  What's yours?

Enjoy!

[Mark Smolens]

One of the depressing things about this site   is that people are always writing about places I haven't played yet.  Yes, I recognize that no Bandon is a huge black mark on my list, but the two courses from Mr. Doak that I have played are 1 and 1a on any list -- Ballyneal and Lost Dunes.

[rchesnut]

Funny to read that old thread...I haven't been able to play any of Tom's "early" courses, but I've played 3 of his later works, and they're 3 of my favorite 10 in the world -- Pacific Dunes, Barnbougle Dunes, and Ballyneal.  

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