[Mark Smolens]

Have not yet been to Arcadia, but have tagged along in a group that goes to the Dunes every year for the last five.  The cabins are great (two king size beds in each four bedroom suite), the greens are other-worldly at times, and some of the elevation changes send the heart rate racing.  But the course is still playable.  The Dunes, on the other hand, is nothing short of mean and nasty.  Miss a shot and you pay, and pay dearly.  Great test, but you'd better be on top of your game if you're going around there.

Also, what would you even do with a cart if they let you take one?  The best thing about the place is often the caddy (tho Mr. Hettinga cooks a mean cheeseburger for you between nines).  Plus, they will let you play as an unescorted guest if you can get a pro to vouch for you -- even I can find someone to do that!

[Steve Lang]

 

Don't forget to add $$$ to those Views and drama issues at Arcadia Bluffs... if you're going to pay that much, then why not take your time.. you've definitely payed for it.. kinda like the Bay Harbour experi

[kconway]

Kelly,
   Do you think that AB lacks ambiance because
1. Its public
2. Its less than 10 years old and with the way the ratings are set up, its only been a GD Top 100 for les than 5 years. Therefore, lesser known...?
3. Or as mentioned, lacks a supposed, big name architect? I think that we will be hearing more of Warren Henderson's work in the future. Im glad that they have credited him with the design. Smith was just a name.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Tony,

For me ambience is an important element of the overall experience.  Its hard to define, but when its there it creates a  feeling of authenticity and uniqueness.

This is more difficult in a public club for sure.  When i played there was nothing special to the feel of the place; also no caddies, which took away from the feel of the place.  Gof carts with GPSs' don't do it for me.

Kelly

[John Kirk]

Kelly,
   Do you think that AB lacks ambiance because
1. Its public
2. Its less than 10 years old and with the way the ratings are set up, its only been a GD Top 100 for less than 5 years. Therefore, lesser known...?
3. Or as mentioned, lacks a supposed, big name architect? I think that we will be hearing more of Warren Henderson's work in the future. Im glad that they have credited him with the design. Smith was just a name.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

Hey Tony,

The ambience factor was fine.  If ambience was a issue, it would more have to do with routing intimacy.

Pace of play was an issue the day I played it, and we were a problem group, finishing in about 4:45, a good 20-25 minutes behind the group in front.    Obviously our fault to an extent, but I thought the course was not set up very well for rapid play.  It does have many interesting holes and fine conditioning.    

[Brian Cenci]

Arcadia is a solid solid course....I've said it 100 times, u take Arcadia and strip away who designed it and it can hold its own with all 3 Bandon courses.

-Brian

Brian,

This seems both condenscending and bold.  Why is Warren Henderson's name on Arcadia a "drawback?"

You also state you don't like the shots you are forced to hit at Kingsley requiring too much local knowledge.  While Crystal Downs is my favorite course, I can recall at least eight potential shots requiring quite a bit of local knowledge.  Is one getting a pass because after eight years you had the knowledge you needed to play the course appropriately?

Ken

Ken,
    Warrne Henderson's name is not a drawback, other than the fact that it is not Doak or C & C, etc.  Too much criticism has been targeted at Arcadia simply because of its location near Lake Michigan and architects, while I think people gloss over the course because of these issues.  
     My issue with Kinglsey is not that I'm required to hit certain local knowledge type shots, its that it tries too hard it seems to draw these shots out of the individual when playing.  Also, some of the greens are over the top...plain and simple.  When I'm below the hole, roll a put up to the hole that lips out and comes back further away from the hole then I just was, that's too tricked up.

-Brian

[Anthony_Nysse]

If pace of play is one of their biggest issues,  why doesnt this ever seemed to get brought up when talking about Harbour Town, TPC, Kiawah or Pebble? Pebble gets mentioned from time to time, but as a golfer, I should figure on dedicating a morning or afternoon to a game. I like to move along also, but thats something that a golfer knows when playing those types of course.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth, TX

[Ken Fry]

My issue with Kinglsey is not that I'm required to hit certain local knowledge type shots, its that it tries too hard it seems t draw these shots out of the individual when playing.  Also, some of the greens are over the top...plain and simple.  When am below the hole, roll a put up to the hole that lips out and comes back further away from the hole then I just was, that's too tricked up.

-Brian

While I don't dispute this possibly happening at Kingsley, it seems hypocritical to excuse the same issue at Crystal Downs.  Does Crystal get a pass because of it's status and history?

Ken

[Joe Hancock]

You guys aren't discussing architectural issues now, you are discussing course setup issues. Every course has it's day...and it's clientèle, and it's members.

Joe

[Brian Cenci]

Ken,
     I've probably played Crystal more than anyone on this site (other than Doak or Devries) and I've never had this happen to me.  I've been above the hole or even with the hole and have a breaking putt and have it go off the green....but never below the hole, lip out and have it come back further away from the hole.  Yes I've putted off the greens at Crystal but they don't ever stimp the greens out where they get unfair.  Crystal does a great job of getting it to the edge of fair and not into the quirky level, like Kingsley sometimes gets to.  Local knowledge plays a huge part in playing there at Crystal, yes and there are spots to miss it to and spots you don't want to be in....but I've never thought it to be unfair.

-Brian

[Nathaniel Amrine]

Bart -  

Yes, you're right. Part of the restoration process was a tree removal program two falls ago that opened up corridors similar to the original Matthews design. Each year for the past five years the course has undergone a "program" to restore it's original quality.

Since you have been there a tree removal program has taken place, a new practice facility was designed and built, new tee boxes were constructed on the 1st, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 8th, 12th, 14th, and 15th holes, while the 2nd, 10th and 13th were completely redesigned. Most importantly the Rooney family added Chip Ferlaak as general manager. The team has created something very special there.

New irrigation was installed last fall and there are now two cuts of rough with contoured fairways. I encourage you to give it another try. You will be disappointed that you didn't.

[Ken Fry]

Brian,

I agree with Joe regarding course set up.  While I love Crystal, I don't personally believe a point of pride should be "I've seen someone putt off every one of the greens."  Again, this is a course set up issue at either place.  "Unfair" is how someone perceives their own luck, wouldn't you say?

I played Erin Hills a few weeks ago and all I could think is, "this is a "lighter" version of Kingsley Club."  I believe Kingsley is a far superior course.

With that said, my 10 round would be:
Kingsley 5
Lost Dunes 4
Dunes Club 1

I love all three of these courses, but I love the serenity of Kingsley, I love the greens of Lost Dunes and I don't love how narrow the playing corridors have become at Dunes Club.

Ken

[Tommy Williamsen]

Just a few thoughts about Muskegon CC.  It is not in the class of the four mentioned at the beginning of this thread.  Nonetheless,they have done some good work at the club and it is a very enjoyable course to play.  My folks live in Muskegon and it is only about an hour north of Wuskowhan and on the way to Kingsley.  If you have the time I think you would have a great time playing. They have some very interesting greens and green sites as well as some good risk reward short par fours.

[Brian Cenci]

Just a few thoughts about Muskegon CC.  It is not in the class of the four mentioned at the beginning of this thread.  Nonetheless,they have done some hood work at the club and it is a very enjoyable course to play.  My folks live in Muskegon and it is only about an hour north of Wuskowhan and on the way to Kingsley.  If you have the time I think you would have a great time playing. They have some very interesting greens and green sites as well as some good risk reward short par fours.

Muskegon is a great course.  Very very underated Ross.  It never gets the recognition it deserves.  I'd rather play Muskegon than Wuskowhan.

[Andy Troeger]

With that said, my 10 round would be:
Kingsley 5
Lost Dunes 4
Dunes Club 1

I love all three of these courses, but I love the serenity of Kingsley, I love the greens of Lost Dunes and I don't love how narrow the playing corridors have become at Dunes Club.

Ken

Ken,
What has happened? We aren't supposed to agree on courses at all let alone put them in the same order for at least some of the same reasons?  

Brian,
See Point O'Woods when you can, its definitely RTJ and as such has fans and detractors of his "style" but I think there's a lot to offer there.

Regarding Arcadia, I guess I'm in the group that thinks its very good, but I do think it has its ups and downs as it heads away from the water, which really isn't that much of a factor except for #12 and 13. I'd probably put it in the top ten in Michigan instead of the top five as I put Crystal Downs, Kingsley, Lost Dunes, Tullymore, and Point O'Woods all ahead of it.

[Nick_Christopher]

Brian,

I have to disagree with your assertion that the greens at Kingsley are somehow less playable than the Downs.  While I love both courses, it is highly unlikely that Perry Maxwell contemplated that greens could consistently roll at the speeds the course is maintained today.  I have seen far more players putt off of greens at the Downs than Kingsley.  While I won't be so bold as to suggest that I have played more rounds, I will contend that I have seen my fair share as a caddie (many years ago) and as a player.  Numbers 8, 9, 11 and 13 jump to mind as examples of greens which a player can putt off with exceeding ease.  Local knowledge is of utmost importance.  

Kingsley is no walk in the park by any stretch, but based on my personal experience I have seen far fewer greens putted off than at Crystal Downs.  Having said that, Kingsley has several recovery areas that probably surpass those at Crystal in terms of difficulty holding the putting surface (2,9,13).

Dan Lucas does an outstanding job of making the greens at Kingsley very playable despite some huge elevations changes.  On several occassions, he has pushed the envelope, but generally keeps the greens with a resonably degree of forgiveness.  

[C. Squier]

This thread did remind me of my best feat of the year....54 holes at Crystal Downs, Kingsley Club and Arcadia Bluffs with the same ProV1.  

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