[TEPaul]

Pat:

The point is--viewed from 2000ft then and now the capes and bays and even most of the edgy detail where the grass meets the sand is very likely remarkably similar but on the ground they don't match in look half so well.

Do you suppose that might be because the architect and crew relied more on the aerials for the restoration?

I like your "pompador" description but for the sake of simplicity let's stick to the "puffy and upholstered" description!

Unless of course you think "Pompador" Wilson not "Puffy" Wilson was working on the MacDonald crew.

[Mike_Cirba]

'Pompadour"?  Why even Lyle Lovett would be jealous!!

Patrick;

You asked my opinion of the bunkers with fescue versus the "clean" bunkers.  I have to tell you that I believe it's a somewhat corrective attempt to add some of the old "uncertainty" and "rough-edge" back to the bunkers at Merion, particularly in the face of significant criticism.

But, the fact is that Merion's bunkers never had thick, consistent "heather surrounds", not in 1913, not in 1930, not in 1950, 71, 81, or any year you want to choose.  The surrounds they did have are well-exhibited in the pictures Tommy posted, and I think you can well see why I've claimed that look is forever GONE for all intents and purposes.  You just don't start with something that looks like the new bunker on 12, or any of them, really (structurally supported, THICK vertical grass face, different grasses, etc.) and end up with the look on Tommy's pictures through natural evolution... no way, no how...that road doesn't go there.  If that argument is valid, then every other course built say before 1950 would have great old Merion style bunkers, and we all know that isn't so.

So no, I don't like the pompadoured, fescued look that you saw on some of the bunkers at Merion, and I don't believe they are consistent with "restoration" efforts to any year there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

Am I correct in stating that you don't like either style of bunker at Merion ?

Why do you think they chose to create two distinct styles ?

What do you think determined which style went where ?

I'm not so sure that years of edging won't diminish or eliminate the wrap around feature.

I thought the pompador on # 13 was the most severe.

Wha'ts surprising is that it seems, other than Chipoat, that nobody in the know wants to clarify the issues or questions raised.  Is that in itself indicative of mistakes and failure of the project ?

[Michael_Burrows]

Patrick

 I wish you could work on a golf course for a month just to see what goes on. As for the bunkers from the photos that I have seen I don't think that it would be as bad as you think it may. From the photos it seems to me that the grass around the bunkers is allowed to grow and are not as mowed as often as they are on other courses. Like I said withl spraying the bunker banks with such chemcials as growth regulators you could maybe get away mowing bunkers once a month if they did allow the grass around the bunkers to grow.  

I understand what you are saying about the bunkers be complexe in nature and in size but with the man power that they have at big clubs such as Merion I doubt the cost of maintaining the bunkers is not that expenses compared to other things such as cost of irrigation or the chemical budget for greens and fairways.

When you go to Merion why don't you talk to Matt Shaffer and ask him how he does it.    

It's just grass man for crying out loud.

May be some superintendents on this site will back me up on this or could give you an example how much it cost compare to other things that have to be groomed and kept up on a golf course.

[Patrick Mucci]

Michael Burrows,

I think you need to view the bunkers in person, because you're evaluation and suggestions are inaccurate and unacceptable.  Mowing the wraparound bunker lips once a month would create unacceptable playing conditions and looks

You can look at the photos that have appeared on this site all you want, they don't depict the wrap around and under, nature of the upholstered bunker lips at Merion.

I have a little experience with building and maintaining bunkers, and I think I know what can be done, reasonably easy and cheap versus difficult and expensive.

I contend that Merion's bunkers, in their present state,
won't survive five (5) years.

I think you're understanding of the problem will become more comprehensive once you visit the site and collect all of the facts.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

I agree with Michael Burrows on the different grass types and heights on the Merion bunkers. It really isn't two different styles just differing heights in various places. And that kind of look is actually not an uncommon one. As such it's a single style not two different ones!

Atlantic City has that look (or did last year) where the portion of a fairway bunker, for instance, that was basically inside a fairway line is short grass surrounds (probably mostly Blue) while that portion of the bunker that was outside the fairway line was much longer with more of a fescue mix, just about like the Merion style.

If you wonder why it would be that way in particular areas it probably basically follows something like Ross's explanation in "Golf has never failed me" that a bunker's face should be higher the farther off line a ball might go. In this case it could be said that higher grass is used to basically accomplish the same thing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I want to give you the opportunity to recant your statement.

The bunkers have two different styles, it's not just a matter of letting the grass grow on one bunker and cutting it on the other.  The upholstered wrap around convex lips that extend down and around to meet the rising sand face of the bunker are inherently different from the bunkers where the grass grows long on top of the lip, with no wraparound feature.

Now picture not cutting that wrap around upholstered lip for a month, allowing the grass to grow:
1   UP
2   OUT toward the tee
3   DOWN toward the floor of the bunker.

I'll permit a twenty minute recess and then you can revise your testimony  

[TEPaul]

Pat:

You really are hilarious! You are a true frustrated trial lawyer, if I've ever seen one.

If you truly think the construction methods on those bunkers are different depending on where the grass is long and where it's short, and consequently that's what you think is two different bunker styles, you'd just be wrong! Don't worry, we all saw those bunkers under construction before grassing.

Look at this issue this way Pat. When those bunkers were under reconstruction they looked a bit like bald mannequins  and then they eventually (like a manequin) got various hair styles on parts of their surrounds (different sodded grasses stapled down on those bald mannequin looking heads)--sort of like different wigs on manequins--are you with me so far?

The different grassing (like different wigs) is just that Pat--grassing--just like M Burrows said. The rougher, higher areas have far more fescue and the smoother areas are almost all blue, I believe.

So if you ripped off all the different grasses on all the bunkers what you'll see is the same style of bunker, minus its grassing.

Just to prove that point the bunker straight down through the first fairway may soon be transitioned from a total long rough fescued look to the smoother shorter look. What do you think they're going to do, take the entire bunker apart and reconstruct it?

It's all about grass types and maintenances practices with the different grass heights Pat not a different bunker style or construction style.

Nice try counselor, but this time it's objection overruled! Now sit down and shut up before you're found in contempt of court--or worse still have your license to discuss suspended!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I've asked the Judge to declare you unfit for trial.  

So one bald head fits all, just a matter of choosing the length of the hair on the toupee

How do you explain the pompador on the 13th green, just longer grass, or a different construction configuration ??

The convex wrap arounds had grass growing down to where they met the sand, two feet down into the bunker.  
Other bunkers did not have that feature, they had sand.  
I would view that as a difference in construction.

The judge want to hear your response prior to making his final decision on whether you're competent to stand trial.
Judges Coore & Crenshaw have recused themselves from hearing your case.  Judge Fazio will sit in their place.
  
Good Luck  
  

[TEPaul]

I know you thiink it's different construction methods but you'd be wrong. It's all about the sodding and the grasses but anyway.

Bill Greenwood recommended very early on a process for catching a more random edgy look! It's called machinegunning!

Would you like to come to the shootout Pat or do you think you're going to be in jail for contempt of court or incompetence?

[Mike_Cirba]

Isn't bunker woll bullet proof?  

I'm still hanging around hoping that Ran answers my questions.  

[TEPaul]

Ahhhh, Jeeesus, Crap! I forgot all about the bunker wol!! Damn it to Hell! The bunker wol is definitely NOT bullet proof--there'd be little bits and pieces of it all over the place! Well, so much for the machinegunning process!

Maybe some kind of string of pullet proof vests could be set up or something just up under the lips to protect the bunker wol. No, that would be too dangerous, there'd be bullets ricochetting all over the place! The machinegunning would have to be way too accurate!

Too accurate..?? Heh, Pat, forget about it, you're disinvited from the machinegunning process. You may be many things, but accurate??? Forget it you're definitely disinvited!

[MP-14]

10 at Winged Foot West.  I hit a draw to a back left pin position and put it in the back left trap.  Jail.  Traps pinch on both sides and A.W. requires a steller effort to get on let alone close to the pine.  I think the hole is well bunkered regardless of pine position.  I can't think of a higher compliment.

[TEPaul]

You see that? You see what MP-14 said about Tillie and his use of a tree for strategy in golf? All you tree haters are not going to want to admit it but Tillie was very creative in his use of trees in the stratgies of golf.

Look at MP-14s post. Not once but twice he said that Tillie used a "PINE" as the ULTIMATE TARGET for this Winged Foot West hole. I guess he had it right on the green somehow. This hole must have been one of his better "very late in the day" creations when most of the flask had been already used up!

If anything calls for a very sympathetic restoration this would be it! Winged Foot West has got to get that PINE back on that green somehow--maybe the next US Open would be the time to debut this restoration!

[MP-14]

I like the bunkering on the 13th hole of the East course at Winged Foot even better than 10 on the West.  The 13th is one of the prettiest and nastiest little par 3s I've ever seen.  Great bunkering, especially the steep front bunker.  The only problem with the hole is the lack of a really good pine sappling protecting the middle of the green.

[Patrick_Mucci]

MP 14,

Are you aware that the current 10th green at WFW is not the original AWT green ?

TEPaul,

We shall meet again, somewhere near Ardmore Ave.
Perhaps Mr Cirba will be available for an inspection.

I'm still curious as to how it was determined which bunker would get which style.  Does anybody know ?

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

I'll be the one dressed as a short, swarthy man of questionable descent, with thick black hair and a mustache.  My fake ID's have already been ordered, and I know this whiz of a plastic surgeon in Bryn Mawr.  

Just call me Luis when anyone is within earshot, and I'm sure we'll all enjoy our round in peace.  

How did anyone decide which style and thickness of toupees to place on each bunker?  You're not suggesting that we rename them the "green mannequin heads of Mer..", are you?  

If I could answer your question, I certainly would.  Obviously, I'm perplexed and confused, and seeking another identity at this strange juncture.  It's amazing what kind of things happen under the euphemistic heading of "true restoration", don't you think?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba & TEPaul,

Here's what puzzles me.

If I had been the responsible party at Merion, in charge of the Project, I would be proud of what I produced, and I would defend my thinking and construction methodology to the world.

WHY the SILENCE ?

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

This is pure speculation, but, this is what I think...

I believe the responsible parties at Merion could have never anticipated the the reactions to their capital maintenance plan that eventually became a "restoration project" sort of late in the game, would have extended beyond Ardmore Avenue.

First, they were concerned about rebuilding the greens, that had problems with poa disease and winter-kill.  That work took place and was largely successful.  At around the same time, they decided to add some new back tees, all in the interest of attracting another US Open.  Again, that work went as planned, and those tees add considerably to the challenge on a number of holes.

Then, some drainage and maintenance issues around the bunkers required some type of infrastructure changes and it was decided to "restore" them, not to any particular year, but consisent with the look Merion had evolved to over many years, only with better plumbing.  Several holes were completed, largely by extensive handwork, which was time-consuming if producing the desired results.  Frankly, the work done was STUNNING.

As I understand it, the club became concerned about the slow progress, particularly with the US Amateur slated for 2005.  

So, the architect in charge of the project was let go, and the club hired a contractor (Macdonald & Sons), and then later Tom Fazio to finish the work on a more ambitious schedule.

Within 8 months, and with teams of men and heavy machinery, all 100+ bunkers were completed, before the fall of last year (2001), and fully 4 years before the tournament.

The dissatisfaction with the look of the new bunkers sort of reached a fever pitch on this website, so much so that the club agreed to meet with Joe Logan of the Philly Inquirer to give their side of the story.  That resulted in a front sports page, Sunday edition story that talked about the work from the club's viewpoint, as well as quoting dissenting views from this website.

At this point, I think the club has decided that time and silence are their allies.  I've heard it said that most of the members like the new bunkers, but don't know how to tell if that's based on anything more than spin.  

I'm sure that what they didn't anticipate was how widely known and loved the course at Merion is beyond the walls of the grill room.  When an electrician from California sees the course as part of his golfing heritage, that type of thing is difficult to comprehend on the Main Line, and certainly standard decorum (thou shalt not criticize your friends golf course) practiced in some circles is totally incongruous with the passionate and vocal criticisms that have come their way on this website.  

Besides, I'm sure they look at this situation and think, "Hey, it's OUR golf course!  They aren't members here, and they don't know all of the details!  We owe them neither an explanation or even a response"  And they're right to a certain extent, but what they might be missing is the fact that all of our best golf courses belong to all of those who love the game to some emotional extent.

Besides, looked at practically, how do you combat the anarchy that exists here?  There is no social order, no hierarchy, no chain of command.  

There are simply impassioned, vocal people from all walks of life who love the golf course and feel that they need to defend it from misguided, if well-intentioned modernization at the hands of an architect who casts verbal barbs and slights at the very classic designers who many here revere, while parading his work under the moniker "restoration".  
  

[MP-14]

Patrick,

No, I did not know that the green on #10 was not the original.  Do you know when and how the green was changed?  From the back left bunker its hard to keep it on the green.   I'm in a little over my head with the level of discussion on this site so any help is appreciated.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba,

That sounds like a possibility, but let me ask you this:

How could anybody build a bunker that the membership would have difficulty getting in and out of, physically ?

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

My last time playing there, after the bunker "restoration", I asked myself a similar question on the very first hole.  

One of our foursome, an older gentleman, hit his second shot towards one of the right hand bunkers.  We were certain that it went in, but couldn't find it.  

After looking for a good 3-4 minutes, I happened upon the ball stuck right into the thick, vertical grass facing, about 36 inches down the length of it.  I was seriously concerned that this gentleman might seriously injure himself in trying to play his next shot, which thankfully, he didn't, despite having to stand outside the bunker and disfigure himself into something resembling the number 7 to take a stance.

Patrick, I'm as confused as you are, despite being much closer to the scene, and having watched the entire thing progress over the past two years.  I truly don't know what they are thinking, but I seriously doubt that elevator-only access bunkers that look like hot tubs with hair are what Hugh Wilson and William Flynn conceived of in 1930!  

[brad_miller]

thought #10 wwf was just slighty regraded, don't believe any contours were changed, something like what Doak and company have done out at SFGC.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

I can scarcely believe you seriously asked; "WHY the SILENCE"? (from Merion, I presume).

I assume you must mean why their silence on this website?

Come on now, they have plenty to concern themselves with over there with their on-going restoration which in one area or form or another has apparently been going on for almost twelve years.

There's no question that the bunker project part of that restoration became very visible and very controversial (particularly on this website) and they're definitely aware of that as they are of Golfclubatlas.

But if you were them, if you were the Merion Green Committee, or Green Chairman, would you really be on this website all the time defending yourself?

Whoops, I forgot who I'm asking this of--I'm asking Pat Mucci aren't I? That's a dumb question and of course you probably would be on here all the time arguing and defending and creating a stir! But you aren't on the green committee of Merion, they are!

Again, in real defense of Bill Greenwood, who is the Merion Green Chairman, and has been for a long time, he's a guy who really has kept an open mind and a real sense of humor about this entire bunker project brouhaha on Golfclubatlas.

But it's not a joke to him, Golfclubatlas isn't either--he's a guy whose always been willing to listen and talk--he's put immense amounts of time and effort and passion into what his role and responsibility is over there. I'm always amazed how cooperative and accomodating he is of so many people despite so much apparent contention in various areas.

I've never known him to be defensive about any of this either and frankly he's the first to admit he has and does read golfclubatlas as well as research all kinds of other avenues.

But I would say he's a really excellent guy at what might be called the "process".

The "process", as you know Pat, is a very complex thing when you have to try to get a restoration done at a world famous golf course and also to deal with the various and differing opinions of hundreds of members and others.

As passionate and probably knowledgeable too, as some are on here about Merion's bunkers and its architecture, I'm afraid they haven't much real clue about what can be called the "process" of dealing with a large and diverse membership inside Merion as well as diverse opinions of many others on the outside with a course like Merion. And frankly, those at Merion are of a feeling that the golf course does in a way belong to more than just them--some here would be surprised how many of them feel that way.

At some point anyone like A Bill Greenwood has to get together everything he thinks he needs and needs to know and he has to pull the trigger. Does he know that despite it all there are still going to be all kinds of pissed off people? You bet he does. He also knows that if he would do the exact opposite or any number of other things he would probably have an equal number of pissed off people on his hands too.

To me that's truly understanding the process and that despite your best efforts you're going to get hammered by plenty of people anyway--so all you can do is what you think is best with what you've got, and then pull the trigger.

I'm not trying to say that I happen to agree with everything that happened on the bunker project. I've always said I thought the surrounds themselves could have been done in another manner. What that exactly might have been though I have a real feeling about but of course I'm not completely sure. Others like TommyN and GeoffShac (maybe Mike Cirba) have been explicitly critical of the bunker project but they have to know that despite their knowledge and passionate feelings about the bunkering of Merion that Greenwood had to deal with many many other passionate and different feelings than just theirs or ours.

But they're done now with the bunkering and Merion is going on with the rest of their restoration and I think it's really good in most every aspect of it.

Again, it's probably time to let this criticism and sniping at the bunker restoration go and look at the other aspects of the Merion restoration if that too is interesting to Golfclubatlas--and it should be.

But this particular thread and topic of yours Pat, "The Dual personalities--Merion's Bunkers" is basically a nonissue!

It's about grassing but if you really want to know why some areas of the bunkering have high fescue grassing and other areas don't I'll be happy to call up Bill Greenwood and ask him for you.

Because as I said before he's always willing to listen and to talk and I think that's very impressive after all this time and all that's gone on here!

[Ed_Baker]

Well..... get on the horn Tommy, I goddamn near bit my tongue off when I played Merion a few weeks ago, Geezus, I had a hundred questions I didn't dare ask.

Here's a couple:

If the bunker work was based primarily on lost function (drainage) why didn't they just find the original depths, put in some drainage tile and leave the goddamn footprints alone?

What was the "process" in hiring Fazio? The"style" of the new bunkers is sooooo different than the originals, I mean it would be like redoing their clubhouse in art decco or something.

Of all of Fazios' massive inventory, what's on the ground ANYWHERE that remotely resembles what Merion was?

Where the hell was the famous "traditions committee" in this process?

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