Stone Eagle

[Daryl David]

My opinion of Stone Eagle is probably a little higher than most posting here, even John K.  I think my elevated opinion comes from having belonged to 3 clubs and having played just about every course in the Coachella Valley.  It is the contrast effect.  Stone Eagle is just so different and so much more fun than the standard desert layout, that it leaves a very positive impression on me.  

If you have watched any of the Skins game at the new Clark redesign at the Indian Wells Golf Resort, you will get what  I am saying.  Pretty, but where's the beef?  I was watching yesterday and if I didn't know where they were playing, I could have guessed 20 or 30 different courses.  If they were on any hole at SE, you would know immediately.

[Kalen Braley]

There was an informerical on the golf channel that they shot at Stone Eagle and I immedieately noticed it looked different than most desert courses.  The bunkering and well protected greens really stood out as well as the very wide fairways...a big contrast from typical target desert golf.

[John Kirk]

Daryl,

I'm trying hard to give a rational, objective analysis.  Emotionally, I like playing Stone Eagle about the same as Ballyneal.  I love the place, and think it's special.  Great course for guys like you and me.

[Jfaspen]

Back when I played it during the KP event, my opinion of it wasn't super high.  Looking back, I think that was the result of both the weather and the unpredictable state of my driver swing (I missed the fairway on 1 and that big downhill dogleg right par 5).

It's a course I hope I get to see again someday.  My iron game is a bit better than it was almost 2 years ago and I think that would help as well.

It remains as perhaps the most picturesque course I've ever played.. The view from the grill/19th hole is as good as any non-ocean view.

Jeff

[Tim Leahy]

A visually stunning course and although I haven't played many of the private tracks in the Palm Springs area it is in my opinion the best course in the Coachella Valley.

[Mike Mosely]

Could someone please post some pics?  I hear the place is the cat's pajamas!

[Jason Topp]

Could someone please post some pics?  I hear the place is the cat's pajamas!

Mike - here is the course tour from their website

http://www.stoneeagleclub.com/html/flash.html

[jeffwarne]

Playing a desert course in 120 degree summer heat and attempting to evaluate/critique it is like playing Shinnecock (or any northern course) for the first time on a 15 degree day in January

[Jason Topp]

Playing a desert course in 120 degree summer heat and attempting to evaluate/critique it is like playing Shinnecock (or any northern course) for the first time on a 15 degree day in January

Funny - when I played it in March I liked it a lot better than the 2nd round of the day in the afternoon in June.

I really think that the weather muted reactions to this course.  

Stone Eagle provides:

1.  Interesting wild green contours
2.  Extremely wide fairways that adhere to turf restrictions , reward accuracy off the tee and yet allow freedom to attack.
3.  Many options for very agressive play with reachable par fives and driveable par fours.
4.  A very unique look to the course with no real defined fairways.  It is an adventure trying to figure out where to hit the ball.

Of the Doak courses I have played (Barnbougle and Pacific Dunes), it is the most creative and unique.    

[Mike Mosely]

Could someone please post some pics?  I hear the place is the cat's pajamas!

Mike - here is the course tour from their website

http://www.stoneeagleclub.com/html/flash.html

Thank you Jason!

[David Stamm]

Here's a photo I have that Jon Spaulding took. I know he has more so perhaps he can post them. I'll look to see if I have more myself.

[Tom_Doak]

That's a cool photo, because it shows pieces of different holes and how they blend together in the landscape so you can't tell what belongs to what.

It's the eighth green in the foreground; the golfers are in the eighth fairway; the sixth hole plays from left to right in the far distance; and you can just see a piece of the third green at the right edge of the photo halfway up.

[Jim Nugent]

Great photos.  Would be cool to see some "before" pictures, too, so we could see what Tom saw when he first looked at the site.  

[Scott_Burroughs]

Someone asked for pics of Stone Eagle, here are two threads w/pics:

(scroll down a bit for some Stone Eagle pics)
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=23932

better thread:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=24879

[Mike Nuzzo]

It's also cool because it shows the distance between the greenside bunker and the one on the top of that ridge - together they blend into one bunker.
The carts also shows just how big that rt fwy bunker is on 6.
Wow.

[Tom_Doak]

Jim N:

A picture of the "before" at Stone Eagle would not begin to show the scale of the place well nor the dramatic elevation changes.  We tried to take them, but you just can't tell a thing.

However, look back at that picture above and I'll give you a hint of what we had to do in some fairways.  On the sixth fairway in the far distance, you see that vertical wall of rough at the bottom of the hole (just above the right cart)?  That's how much we filled that fairway to make it playable.  The tee elevation and the fairway bunker elevation are at grade, but there's about 15-20 feet of fill in the low part of the fairway.  And then in the profile of the desert terrain behind the fairway, do you see that long dip?  And see how the color is a bit greyer than it is to either side?  We cut that down about 15 feet -- that's where all the dirt in the fairway came from.

I am glad not every site is that complicated.

[Jim Nugent]

Thanks, Tom.  How hard was it to route Stone Eagle?  Did you do lots/most of the routing from topo maps?  

[Tom_Doak]

We did most of the routing off topo maps, although I made several trips to the site during the process to check up on what I was doing.  It was a very complicated course to route -- where Sebonack and St. Andrews Beach took a weekend to route, Stone Eagle (and Ballyneal) took more than a year of return visits to figure out.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

All architects usually have a 'wish list' of things they would have done differently with each course they design.

If there was one (and only one specific "do over") what would you change / improve at Stone Eagle given what is there now?

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

I do not usually have a "wish list" as you suggest because I think we generally get our designs right.

However, with Stone Eagle, I would say that in hindsight I should have debated the project's goals more with the client at the outset.  They have been successful developing other courses and they believed they had a group of buyers who would buy into this project as well -- the older, Palm Springs buyer who can't hit it that far.  So their input from the start was to make the course very wide and minimize lost balls, which we did.

But the memberships haven't sold as well as expected, and I think it's because this piece of property just was never going to appeal to their target audience; while they have sold a fair number of memberships to a younger clientele than they thought.  It is a really dramatic site and I wonder if it would have been more successful if we had tried to make it the "Pine Valley of the West" -- longer, narrower in spots so you couldn't hit the driver with impunity, and even more dramatic.  

However, I don't know if the client would ever have gone for that, and I don't really know if I could have achieved that in the routing if they had.  The course is under 7000 yards because it just couldn't be longer than it is without going down to the right of #13 where there were some unattractive neighboring parcels.

[Jimmy Muratt]

Tom,

Very interesting to read your comments on further clarifying the project's goals from the outset and perhaps going in a slightly different direction.  Do you find yourself anxious to do a project where the developer's goal is "a very demanding golf course that tests the best players"?  

Most of your courses tend to favor wide playing corridors, yet still reward proper placement off the tee with a strategic advantage on your next shot.  And, if a very demanding golf course was the goal, have you thought of how to still make it enjoyable?  This seems like the ultimate test in a project really.  So many of the truly difficult golf courses leave you feeling like you've been repeatedly hit with a 2x4 while walking off the 18th green.  

Sebonack seems like it fits the bill more than your others as far as difficult golf courses.  Do you have a few design strategies in mind as to how to create a truly difficult golf course and still not strictly dictate where the player must place every shot?  

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

Thanks for your response -- I just wonder if Stone Eagle has been hampered by the success of Big Horn -- immediately next to it and to a lesser extent with The Reserve -- also nearby?

I also have to wonder whether the "traditional" Coachella Valley golf audience is ready to understand / accept the critical dimension Stone Eagle offers as opposed to the ho-hum layouts that dominate the existing marketplace in the immediate desert environment.

It's also quite possible that plenty of top tier locations have tapped out against the realities of the golf market in play when the course was completed and ready for membership.

Stone Eagle is a fun layout and it clearly can provide suitable entertainment for a broad range of players.

If you had opted for the PV style -- the demands would likely have been a major turn-off for a number of people already there.

I just think the actual timing of the course with the market place has had a major impact -- but I have to emphasize that my aforementioned comment is nothing more than speculation on my part.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

The clients for Stone Eagle are the same group who built The Reserve so I don't think that has hampered its success ... but they  hoped a lot of those homeowners might want to buy a second or third membership in the desert to play Stone Eagle, and as you say, the timing of when they hit the market was not ideal for that kind of spending.

Bighorn attracts a different kind of buyer, in my opinion ... even though there are maybe more of them than of mine in the Palm Springs area.

Jimmy:

No, it's not really a goal of mine to build an extremely difficult golf course, although it seems to me there should be a market for the "Pine Valley of the West" which nobody has really filled, and Palm Springs would be an excellent place for it.  Generally, I like to be able to finish my own golf courses.

[Lou_Duran]

"Do you find yourself anxious to do a project where the developer's goal is "a very demanding golf course that tests the best players"?" Jimmy M.

Tom Doak,

I was under the impression Mr. Rawls and his cohorts directed you to do pretty much that at Texas Tech- design a course which would challenge the best Division I collegiate players.  If I am not mistaken, was the goal achieved?

Without the benefit of having played Pine Valley, I wonder if it can possibly be more difficult than the Dye course at PGA West for the best players.  

[PThomas]

We did most of the routing off topo maps, although I made several trips to the site during the process to check up on what I was doing.  It was a very complicated course to route -- where Sebonack and St. Andrews Beach took a weekend to route, Stone Eagle (and Ballyneal) took more than a year of return visits to figure out.

posts like this is GCA at its finest...thanks Tom