[George Pazin]

I was out in Phoenix last weekend & had the opportunity to play a couple more desert courses. They were enjoyable, though one was more so than the other. I started thinking about my two trips to the Southwest & came to the conclusion that, while in general I don't care for desert golf, I think I like desert golf more than canyon golf. By desert golf I mean courses that are relatively flat & open, versus canyon golf where you're playing up, down, over & around canyon walls.

Canyon golf seems to be narrower with more containment, while desert golf seems more like parkland, with desert replacing the trees. (How's that for a weak generalization? )

Anyone else have any thoughts on the two? I realize I am helplessly biased, but canyon golf wins my vote for least natural golf in the real world.

P.S. I should probably mention that Rustic Canyon is most definitely NOT one of the canyon courses I've played & sounds nothing like the ones I've played. It's high on my list of courses I most look forward to playing.

For the record:

Desert courses: Primm Valley (Desert) & Whirlwind (Cattail)
Canyon courses: Wolf Creek (Mesquite,NV) & Eagle Mountain

[A_Clay_Man]

George- Please, Don't be so harsh. Like natural blowouts such as those in the Sand Hills regions rock outcropings, canyons  arroyos, et al are just as natural here. I will grant it that the archies intellegint use of said rocks, which is usually formed by erosion, is at best, few and far between. So, until you see more of what your not liking, I'd ask you hold any prejudice.

[Matt_Ward]

George --

Did you think you were going to find an extension of Pittsburgh when in the desert southwest? Can't comment on all of the courses you've played in the desert, but I can name quite a few examples that are fine courses -- whether "desert" or "canyon."

Did you not like Wolf Creek in Mesquite, NV? I hope you're not going to compare it to the layouts in western Pennsy?

Clearly, if someone doesn't enjoy desert style golf than it will clearly impact their assessment. However, without knowing examples of what you've played and what you might have missed I believe you have to take that area of the country for what it is and go from there.

[George Pazin]

Adam -

I understand that canyons/rocks/arroyos/etc. are natural. I guess I just don't think they look especially natural with lush green grass down in the valley or perched on a hillside for teeing grounds.

I also have no problem with others enjoying this. Heck, if I lived near or in a canyon, I'd want to have a course as close as possible.

I just don't find the golf particularly enjoyable, at least relative to other golf options. (I do subscribe to the golf is like pizza or sex analogy...)

[George Pazin]

Matt -

No, I wasn't expecting to find the Burgh out west. The only sense I am comparing the two is to say which I find more enjoyable. I don't really believe in the "better" thing. In some cases it may be clear cut, but in many I think it's personal preference. As I said in my clarification to Adam, I just don't find canyon golf thus far to be particularly enjoyable relative to other types of golf.

As an aside, those Phoenix-ers need to toughen up. I was the only person on the course Sunday - in 70+ degree weather without a cloud in the sky - in shorts. Many people were wearing mock turtle necks & sweaters!!

[A_Clay_Man]

George- I think the subtext of my post was to dig at those courses which have either been built for housing or didn't have the luxury or knowledge that quality golf can be built. I have played some wonderful golf holes in my day and few can beat the serenity of a 270 degree enclosed by rock walls ala Oasis club's.  
As for the green grass I know what you mean but we are talking golf here. And  without the green stuff the club manufactuers would be selling alot more clubs due to the nicks dings and punishment they take off the fairway. Maybe they should consider suing the agronomists because without them their revenues would be over the top.

[Matt_Ward]

George:

Plenty of people I know don't like desert or canyon style golf because they have become sooooooo accustomed to how golf presents itself in the northeast area of the country.

I agree with Adam. The contrasts the land offers when you play in the southwest is very inspiring to me. I also know such contrasts can be very intimidating to others because there is such a finality in many shotmaking situations. Clearly, I believe the opinions of golf courses is usually dictated by the tees someone plays.

I had a few friends play Badlands outside of Vegas and there misfortune was in playing championship tees when they played like chumps that day. Needless to say, the crying in the 19th hole beers was intolerable.

FYI -- agree with you regarding the clothing style of those "wimps." I always play in shorts and when I played some of the layouts there last February I thought they were going to send for some extra winter coats when the temperature was sunny and in the low 60's!

George, without knowing some specific examples of courses it's tough to broad brush an entire area.

[RJ_Daley]

George, I hear ya.  I am not naturally drawn to the rock outcropping style of look of the canyon courses I have seen either.  I also feel there is just something that goes contrary to my preference to see the highly manicured grass woven among the rocky barren outcroppings.  Rustic does not come off that way because it is on a floor of a canyon and is more like a meadow in that regard, without the large boulder groupings I detest.  Barona has a few, but generally avoids too much of the rocky clusters within play, with a few exceptions.  I almost blew a gasket when my approach that otherwise should have been pretty good to #4 green carroomed off an "artificial" rock greenside and fronting.  I had to be calmed down and spoken to soothingly by Todd when I confronted him on it.  He explained it was the only way to hide an irrigation feature which I didn't notice inside the fake rock, that had to be located there. I also didn't like the rock grouping near the green on I think #8 at Maderas.  But again, generally, that course like Barona doesn't have the groupings overly involved in play.  

What I totally hate, was Lost Canyons.  That place was completley undesirable to me.  It is however a preferance thing. :-/

BTW, my weekly men's club 4some partner lives half the year in Mesquite and plays the WolfRun course several times a year when company comes.  He is ambivolent to its playing qualities too, just another pretty place he says.

[George Pazin]

Matt -

My intention was not a broad brush criticism of either. I was simply expressing my preference based on my limited playing experience and looking for opinions from others on the same.

In case you missed my modification of my initial post, my desert/canyon resume is as follows:

desert courses: Primm Valley (Desert), Whirlwind (Cattail)
canyon courses: Wolf Creek (Mesquite,NV), Eagle Mountain (Scottsdale,AZ)
hybrid: Dragon Ridge outside of Vegas

Obviously, my experience is very limited with respect to either type of course. It simply struck me that the canyon courses seemed to be narrower but somewhat bowl like with respect to containment, while the desert courses seemed to have more width & were more playable for a 90s shooter such as myself. I also found playing out of the desert not that bad, while canyon courses tend to be more rocky on the outskirts. You either can't find the ball that has pinballed around or it's up against a rock.

With regard to tees, I generally play the normal men's tees on a course, not the tips. I'm fully aware that I'm not the kind of player who should be playing the tips, though I will on occasion if my playing partner(s) insist. Different tee markers don't always help that much, though. I'm plenty long enough to play the tips, but I'm way too inconsistent to even have an average driving length. I can hit it 270+, or I can top it 30 yards. When you play & practice as infrequently as me, it's tough to develop any sort of consistency. So it doesn't necessarily matter what tees I play.

[MBL]

As an aside, those Phoenix-ers need to toughen up. I was the only person on the course Sunday - in 70+ degree weather without a cloud in the sky - in shorts. Many people were wearing mock turtle necks & sweaters!!

George-

How about number of walkers???  ;~)

[A_Clay_Man]

I've stayed away from going on and on about Pinon Hills mostly because I didn't want to come off as blow'in my own home's horn and partly because I wasn't so sure. But now that the winter has set in and the grass is officially that brownish dormant and haaaard, I'd highly recommend anyone who wants to see the genius of Ken Dye's use of the terrrain and how he made a golf course that is fun(challenge) for golfers to all levels.

 Anyone who gets to jonesing should plan a winter sojourn here.

[Craig_Rokke]

I've played a little of both, and have concluded that, as an Easterner, it's exciting just to tee it up on a course that looks and feels a lot different than what you're used to playing. That  was definitely a part of the appeal in playing such courses as Legend Trail, Barona, Talking Stick and Rustic C.

I think the canyon effect at Rustic adds to the intimate feel
of the course.

[Forrest Richardson]

Thank you for mentioning Legend Trail. Our goal ther was to create a version of desert golf, slightly more graceful and natural than recent efforts (at the time). It came off well, sans the housing which was a pain to hide as much as we could.

Actually the desert shares a tremendous bond with linksland. The desert is windswept and shaped by nature; it is barren; and it provides a canvas for geo-morphing rises and falls in the finished land. What gets in the way -- yet can be very beautiful -- are the rocks, unnatural water features and sharp contrast in colors and textures. Yet, we like to think of this as interest and charm.

[Matt_Ward]

The real issue should be not desert golf versus canyon golf but playability / challenge that can be attained. The rub against much of the golf in the southwest is that you have some courses that take "target style golf" to the highest level and it can become an absolute nightmare for those players not accustomed to the "sink or swim" set-up of many courses.

I've played many courses tha feature desert / canyon style golf and the critical factor is in giving some latitude to the higher handicap players who are simply intimidated by the nature of the shotmaking requirements.

I'm glad to see there are courses like Mirabel which can both challenge the better player without causing the absolute anguish for the higher handicap. In fact -- that's how Mirabel actually came about because the original Greg Norman course would have had only 60 acres of green turf!

If people visiting the area are expecting the Southwest to be the reincarnation of the Northeast then the outcomes they want will likely never happen. I find the golf in the Southwest to be intoxicating with the proper layout. I've mentioned Wolf Creek in Mesquite, NV is a helluva course PROVIDED you understand what Clint Eastwood was famous for saying in his Dirty Harry movies ... "a man's got to know his limitations." If you play the appropriate tees you can add to your enjoyment and to those who follow behind you. I also like what Pete Dye did at the Wolf Course at Paiute Resort just north of Vegas in this regard. I also believe what has been created at Rustic Canyon should be studied and emulated in many ways -- it just shows you CAN ACHIEVE something without the accompanying triple digit green fees you almost always see today.

Playable courses don't have to be a "lite" course by any means. It does take, however, a tremendous talent in maximizing the land and in giving appropriate challengs to the fullest range of players.

[Andy Troeger]

Living in the southwest for almost a year now I've given this a bit of thought without having seen this old thread. I've had the opportunity this year to play quite a few courses that could be described as canyon courses or desert courses or even at times a combination of the two.

I'll have to admit that my biggest frustration with golf in the southwest is the "sink or swim," as Matt put it, nature of the courses. Balls that go into the desert seem to return rather infrequently at many canyon or desert courses. There are exceptions to this of course but its a generalization that rings true more often that not.

The downside to canyon golf is the lack of walkability due to the harsh terrain. These courses can be hard to route in a fashion where holes are close to each other and thus long walks can occur plus the terrain itself is challenging. On the other hand many of these courses offer spectacular vistas that cannot be seen in other parts of the country. Personally I enjoy that.

Desert courses can be more walkable, although many of them are housing courses (as are some of the canyon courses) which takes away some of that element. The housing at desert courses often takes away from the scenery as well with the lack of elevation changes in comparison to the canyon style. A course such as Troon North must have been spectacular when it opened, but now there are more views of swimming pools than mountains on the "New Pinnacle" course.

I think the elevation changes add a dimension to the canyon courses that make the better ones more appealing to me than most of the purely desert courses I've seen. Fairway width is an important consideration on both types of courses to maximize the playability of the courses for all caliber of golfers. The ones that do this are often very good IMO, with the biggest two negatives being overly narrow holes surrounded by "lost ball" desert, and impeding housing.

[cary lichtenstein]

I much prefer canyon golf or rough terrain over desert golf

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Carte blanche statements generally have plenty of holes in them - no pun intended. It pays to be site specific in regards to the nature of courses -- whether they be canyon related or desert.

I've said previously harsh terrain sites can be very different than what many "classic school" types seem to favor. I've used the food analogy that desert / canyon golf is like Thai food -- for those inclined to your basic Amercan steak'n potato the result of visits to a Thai place may not likely be satisfactory.

But keep in mind this -- it's very amusing when people fall overthemselves in gushing about quirky courses across the pond but because the locale is Scotland or Ireland there's plenty of leeway that such layouts are good designs. The same tagline doesn't apply to the better desert / canyon courses which do in fact exist. Candidly, some of that is tied to a "homerism" that folks from certain parts of the country tend to prefer what they know and if they only make a one time or limited amount of study time to the SW portion of the USA it's likely that such a misunderstanding can take place because of the sheer limited time / courses that have been really studied.

I'm not suggesting that desert / canyon golf will be something that strikes the fancy of a certain core group of people -- many of whom opine here. But I can say this in seeing nearly all of the top courses in that area of the USA that particular designs do deserve their fair share of legitimate fanfare as solid golf designs.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
It certainly is very difficult to make statements regarding genres of courses, some canyon and desert courses are better than others. Had I taken a trip to AZ and played the "wrong" courses I can see how that might sway one's opinion.

The thing I've found about canyon courses is that they are almost always interesting to play, even if some of them are better thought out than others. Always something going on with the elevation changes to keep them interesting. Desert courses can have the same aspect, but sometimes can be pretty repetitive if the ground itself doesn't contain some interesting features.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Keep in mind the "herd mentality" generally works to the disadvantage to courses that are defined by the "desert & canyon" tag lines.

People often think of golf based in terms of classic architecture in the USA from courses represented in the Northeast and other similar type layouts.

No doubt desert / canyon layouts are not eveyone's cup of tea but there's plenty of first rate layouts I would not hesitate for a second to return time after time. Credit modern architect's for making such venues better because they have seen the poor and horrible outcomes that have opened long ago.

However, if someone makes a one-time visit it's likely they won't be able to fully appreciate how such venues have changed for the better in many instances.

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