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Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails 14th Plastic Surgery
« Reply #75 on: November 20, 2007, 04:10:00 PM »
John Kavanaugh,
   I have been told, but cannot confirm, that the reason for the shuttle is guest's fatal heart attack. It is not a pace of play issue and if what I heard is true, I doubt that it will be discontinued. The radio traffic I witnessed Sunday gives that supposition some more credence.
 

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails 14th Plastic Surgery
« Reply #76 on: November 20, 2007, 04:17:47 PM »

I trust Mr. Keiser's judgement and Bill Coore's wisdom and skill, and expect that the result will not be 'dumbed down', simply a bit more playable in the front of the green, and slightly more forgiving when playing from the left green surround.  I expect the hole to continue to have some controversy, lots of respect and conversation afterward, some head scratching and cussing....I do not believe the character or challenge will change radically, as the hole simply has too much going for it besides the simple issue of the left edge of the green.

Tom,

Well said.  I suspect you're right--the sky is not falling.  Even so, I wish they weren't changing the hole; I've never faced a more nerve-wracking shot than my second on #14 . . . and I wasn't even aiming at the green.  

CHrisB

Re:Bandon Trails 14th Plastic Surgery
« Reply #77 on: November 20, 2007, 08:20:37 PM »
Maybe I'm dense, but I'm not seeing how the 14th at Bandon Trails is a "strategic hole."

Unless I've missed something (always possible!), everyone agrees that there is ONE ideal tee shot -- as far as possible down the left-hand side. And everyone agrees that a deftly played second shot is then required, from anywhere off the green -- with no bailout area that promises an "easy bogey."

What's strategic about that?

Dan,
Everyone also agrees that the one ideal tee shot at #10 at Riviera (one of the best examples of a "strategic" short par 4) is likewise as far as possible down the left-hand side.

But that doesn't mean that it is easy (or worth it) to try to hit it there. The trees stick out from the left at about 15-20 yards short of the green, so when trying to drive the green you can't just bang it down the left as hard as you can (like you can at Riviera) and get away with it. So missing it left can be problematic (pitch out) as can missing it right (awkward chip/pitch).

If you don't attempt to reach the green with tee shot, you then have to decide how long of a shot you want in to that green. Do you want a 40 yarder, a 60 yarder, and 80 yarder, a 100 yarder? The answer for me depends on the hole location and the wind. Downwind I'd want an uphill lie and a fuller shot that I can spin, while into the wind I feel better with a shorter yardage. (And you definitely need to know at what yardage the low gathering spots on the right are--the turf is generally good but hitting it into a gathering spot increases the chances of finishing in a divot, which would leave little choice but a run up shot to the short-left of the green.)

Then the decision is how far left to attempt to hit the shot, again depending on the wind and the type of shot you feel comfortable attempting. If the pin is in front or back-right I would try to hit it farther up the left side and leave a shot I can spin. If I do that, then I have to take into account how I'm hitting it and decide whether to hit a hard draw to climb the hill or a straighter shot down the left (if I'm feeling really good).

Anyone who has an awkward wedge shot into the green can always hit it to the front-left of the green which will leave an "easy bogey" to any pin. The problem is that player after player doesn't want the "easy bogey" on a short/driveable par 4, and so they try the lower percentage shot and end up in some places where they are fighting for a 5.

To me, the hole plays similar to a mirror-image version of the 6th at Pacific Dunes, particularly at the green. It is easier, however, to hit it to the one ideal tee shot (as far down the right as possible) on that hole because the fairway is not nearly as sloped as on #14 at BT.

Norbert P

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails 14th Plastic Surgery
« Reply #78 on: November 20, 2007, 08:37:46 PM »
[quote author=Dan Kelly
Maybe I'm dense, but I'm not seeing how the 14th at Bandon Trails is a "strategic hole."

Unless I've missed something (always possible!), everyone agrees that there is ONE ideal tee shot -- as far as possible down the left-hand side. And everyone agrees that a deftly played second shot is then required, from anywhere off the green -- with no bailout area that promises an "easy bogey."

What's strategic about that?

Dan
Quote

Dan, the ideal shot, nay, result, may be the driver to the left upper or to the green but a shorter club with a higher accuracy percentage is a strategic choice. In my opinion, to be short and right is better than long and right, thus, it puts some higher doubt into the driver.  It's not always where to go for strategy, but how you get there.

Richard, 325 yard par 5's are my favorite.

Tom J, great post and Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.  I bet y'all get a great deal on cranberry sauce in Bandon.
"Golf is only meant to be a small part of one’s life, centering around health, relaxation and having fun with friends/family." R"C"M

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails 14th Plastic Surgery
« Reply #79 on: November 20, 2007, 08:39:07 PM »
I also have not played the hole, but it does look like a short little devil.

That being said, I'm not seeing what all the fuss is about that the hole will be spoiled, ruined, maimed, or otherwise destroyed by making it 6 feet wider.  From the left hand side, at 100 yards out 6 feet is pretty much nothing.  From all this talk it would seem like TF is to be let loose on the hole and has his dozers lined up to flatten it!!   :D ;)

Is this much ado about nothing or is this GCA'ers needing something to whine about because its "that time of the year"??  ;D
« Last Edit: November 20, 2007, 08:40:05 PM by Kalen Braley »

John Kavanaugh

Re:Bandon Trails 14th Plastic Surgery
« Reply #80 on: November 20, 2007, 08:45:59 PM »
I also have not played the hole, but it does look like a short little devil.

That being said, I'm not seeing what all the fuss is about that the hole will be spoiled, ruined, maimed, or otherwise destroyed by making it 6 feet wider.  From the left hand side, at 100 yards out 6 feet is pretty much nothing.  From all this talk it would seem like TF is to be let loose on the hole and has his dozers lined up to flatten it!!   :D ;)

Is this much ado about nothing or is this GCA'ers needing something to whine about because its "that time of the year"??  ;D

Have you ever talked about a hole you have seen?

Eric Olsen

Re:Bandon Trails 14th Plastic Surgery
« Reply #81 on: November 20, 2007, 09:32:03 PM »
I have played the hole at least 6 times and agree that adding a few feet to the left side of the front of the green does not warrant the dramaticisms contained in some of the posts on this subject.  The hole will continue to generate criticism, and praise, I believe.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails 14th Plastic Surgery
« Reply #82 on: November 20, 2007, 10:38:07 PM »
Thank you, Chris and Slag. You have given the hole a much fuller description than I'd previously seen. I'm understanding, now, that the considerations on the tee are much greater than I would have guessed from the early descriptions.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

David Botimer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails 14th Plastic Surgery
« Reply #83 on: November 21, 2007, 11:28:54 PM »
Having played it twice, I do not trip over the fact that bogey is like par for me on this hole.  I LOVE it because of the difficulty and CHALLENGE.  The tee shot is so demanding because of the slope to the right.  I tried to follow directions given here the first time by trying to play the left side, into the trees/rough I went.

I think of this hole and compare it to No. 6 at PD which also demands the tee shot to a specific side of the fairway.  You can be in the fairway and simply not have much chance for par if you are on the wrong side hitting into the narrow side of the green.  However, the slope at BT feeding the ball right makes it much more difficult.

Having played it twice, I really feel the risk of hitting it too far left with MY driver is just not worth it.  For me, I think I should hit the longest club that I can count on keeping it in the left side of the fairway.  Then settle on a 9I to wedge for the left third of the green no matter where the pin is located.  If the pin is back right, then so be it and hope for a two putt.

I would be interested in hearing from David to know what he has observed as the most consistently successful strategy regardless of the skill of the player.

I often thought a bunker beyond the back right pin position would be penalty enough without having a ball head down the hill.  How many times has he observed players pick up when the ball goes there.



Consistently successful?  With the summertime wind from the north and playing straight downwind (already elevation adjusted 300 yards = 265 yards - check it out with your Bushnell next time on the tee box) getting close is alot easier than you'd think, even with average length driver.  Thus, staying 5-15 yards left of flag off tee, putting 2nd shot from front or left of green, 2 putts on green with considerable respect for speed of green once past about 5 paces on as it crests and starts dropping downhill with a tailwind!!!  Did I say this is the single most challenging hole I've ever seen!!!  It is.

Pick up if ball long?  Regularly, as that is a spot most scratch golfers don't go (they usually manage at least bogey from left of green with good short game).  By the time mid to high handicapper is behind green they are often at stroke 4 and higher and catching on they may not have the skill to complete the hole.

Compare to 6 at PD?  Left of flag near bunker (at #6) is clearly no bargain, but because it plays INTO the summer wind the effective shot is often 100 plus yards and success is much more frequent.  Most people who end up there are because they didn't have distance off tee to clear right bunker 100+ yards from green (requires 200 yard carry into the wind) and aimed left, thus longer approach shot to green.   Played as normal wedge shot always to middle distance or less is shot even mid handicappers can pull off.  In the winter with tailwind most can carry bunker thus far fewer go left off tee.

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails 14th Plastic Surgery
« Reply #84 on: November 22, 2007, 12:05:46 AM »
I love the hole. The green probably could be softened without hurting the hole too much. There is great strategy to the hole and it is one tough sob.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2007, 09:34:22 AM by Tiger_Bernhardt »

David Botimer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails 14th Plastic Surgery
« Reply #85 on: November 22, 2007, 12:43:05 AM »
Tiger, I agree, this is a phenomenal hole.  The tee box is one of the greatest tees anywhere with the views south, west and north!!!  And then the fun begins!!!

Short par 4's SHOULD be tough.  The minor changes to the green should still allow the hole to retain its challenge, punish bad shots, and hopefully reward good shots.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails 14th Plastic Surgery
« Reply #86 on: November 22, 2007, 10:32:17 AM »
A perfect example of the card and pencil mentality in golf. "It"s hard to make four....it's not fair...it should be softened....."

Match play scenario: Your 6 beats my 7......there, perceived problem solved.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Joe Bentham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails 14th Plastic Surgery
« Reply #87 on: November 23, 2007, 02:19:34 AM »
A perfect example of the card and pencil mentality in golf. "It"s hard to make four....it's not fair...it should be softened....."

Match play scenario: Your 6 beats my 7......there, perceived problem solved.

Joe
Joe--
I'd agree with you 99.9% of the time on that .  I just think 14 falls a little short even in that light.  The hole is dictated by luck for the handicap players.  When its over its not my 6 beats your 7, its who got luckiest.  The changes won't make it that much easier of a medal play hole and they'll make it a better match play hole IMO.

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails 14th Plastic Surgery
« Reply #88 on: November 23, 2007, 07:16:51 AM »
Joe Bentham,

I agree that luck is a factor. And, I'm quite alright with that!

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tom Jefferson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails 14th Plastic Surgery
« Reply #89 on: November 23, 2007, 09:31:09 AM »
Joe,

Yeah, there's nothin wrong with a guy gettin lucky once in a while....in golf or any other way!

Why, we got lucky with the weather here in Bandon....brilliant late fall conditions...sunny, warm, sparkling ocean, incredible golf!

Trust you had a good holiday!

Tom
the pres

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails 14th Plastic Surgery
« Reply #90 on: November 23, 2007, 09:33:37 AM »
Tom,

You are the second luckiest man I know.... ;D

Great Thanksgiving day, food came out great and a houseful with the families and our four grandsons....

I think I need a glimpse of the ocean soon, preferably on the sun setting side.... :)

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Joe Bentham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Bandon Trails 14th Plastic Surgery
« Reply #91 on: November 23, 2007, 04:23:27 PM »
Joe,

Yeah, there's nothin wrong with a guy gettin lucky once in a while....in golf or any other way!

Why, we got lucky with the weather here in Bandon....brilliant late fall conditions...sunny, warm, sparkling ocean, incredible golf!

Trust you had a good holiday!

Tom
I agree. The only thing getting in the way of the golf right now is the mat.

As for 14, I just see very few people play the hole well who didn't get lucky.  Even when you play defense your still counting on getting a good bounce somewhere.  How many times have you more or less executed your plan and still made a big number there?  I'm not agasint luck at all, I just think better holes allow players to plan around it.  

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