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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2007, 10:15:40 PM »
TEP, you are close enough to Jersey to be able to speak the language...   ::)

ting, like in cosa, like in ours, like as in nostra...

I have no doubt that you have seen the promised land.  Give hope a chance brother.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Peter Pallotta

Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2007, 10:34:46 PM »
TE
you know what my latest thinking is on that?

I think Max Behr won the battle, but lost the war. I think he was RIGHT, but we can't see that anymore. Those who won the war stacked the deck it, i.e. against anyone ever again being able to fully understand/experience what Behr was talking about.

How's that for a little high falutin bit of speculation? :)

Peter  
 

TEPaul

Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2007, 10:35:38 PM »
"TEP, you are close enough to Jersey to be able to speak the language...   ;D

RJ:

I'm close to Jersey, brother, but I'll never be close enough to speak that language. Of course we are talking some distinctions here---Northern Jersey is what you're referring to. Compared to North Jersey, South Jersey is like a foreign country. ;)

Mike Mosely

Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2007, 10:37:25 PM »
TE
you know what my latest thinking is on that?

I think Max Behr won the battle, but lost the war. I think he was RIGHT, but we can't see that anymore. Those who won the war stacked the deck it, i.e. against anyone ever again being able to fully understand/experience what Behr was talking about.

How's that for a little high falutin bit of speculation? :)

Peter  
 

This sounds interesting.  In what way do you mean, Peter?  I'm a Behr neophyte compared to the rest of you, so go slow for me so I can keep up!

TEPaul

Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2007, 10:48:43 PM »
"TE
you know what my latest thinking is on that?

I think Max Behr won the battle, but lost the war. I think he was RIGHT, but we can't see that anymore. Those who won the war stacked the deck it, i.e. against anyone ever again being able to fully understand/experience what Behr was talking about.

How's that for a little high falutin bit of speculation?"


Peter:

Nope, No Siree, I've gotta disagree with you there.

I think Behr and his writing won the first skirmish hands down but there may not have been enough around at that point to notice.  I believe Crane then went on to win the battle, but, THE WAR, my friend, is not yet over!

Have you met this exciting new tactical and strategic genius from Atlanta, Georgia, Lt General Robert Algernon Crosby? When he tracks down and conquers the enemy, to their astoundment and enjoyment, he just lets them go to proceed with any option they choose. His modus wins converts without fail.
 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2007, 10:58:11 PM by TEPaul »

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2007, 10:53:25 PM »
I'll check the links shortly,guys.  Thanks.  Have we compiled a list of his courses?  How are they preserved?  Are any still as he designed them back in the day?


Victoria
RSFGC (I just played there w/ Jon Spaulding again on Fri)
Lakeside
Montecito
Montebello
Oakmont (Glendale)

....and there are a few others.



Victoria is the least changed from what TN has shown me. Montecito is about to be totally bulldozed by Nicklaus, so the little of Behr that is left will be gone forever there. RSFGC has had so many arch's there that it's difficult to "peel away" the work of others and see it. The routing is somewhat intact with the exception of 18. Jon Spaulding can chime in with Victoria. I've seen some of it, but from what he's seen, number 1 there is totally different and I think he said 18. Everything else is close. Lakeside was wiped out by the flood of 1937. You can see it in some of Bobby Jones instructional movies, pre flood. It looked magnificent.


Behr's work has probably been mauled more than any other from the GA. A sad story considering he was right up there with the greats of that time.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Peter Pallotta

Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2007, 10:55:07 PM »
Mike - thanks, but I'm a neophtye too; all that I know about Behr I've learned here on this site, from gents like TE, Bob Crosby and Tommy N. So I was being a little cheeky with my bold statement there. But for what it's worth, what I'm suggesting is that the kind of courses and golfing experience Behr was talking about and hoping to engender never got built and never got experienced; or should I say, never had a fighting chance against the overwhelming number of other kinds of courses that were built after WWII. Which is to say, since we're all shaped by our experiences and environment (in golf as in everything else), and since most of us have spent most of our time playing courses that are NOT the Behrian ideal, it would suprise me if we COULD appreciate the kind of golfing experience that Behr was trying to describe.

A lot of words, Mike, for not a very big point...and even then, please don't take my word for it.

Peter  

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2007, 10:59:30 PM »

If you do, find, read, reread, then read again and come to truly understand the articles of Max H. Behr!!

If you can do all that you will be Free at Last---AND You Will THANK GOD ALMIGHTY that you are FREE AT LAST.

Tom I --

I'm glad you've given this discussion a religious twist -- because my
first thought, upon seeing the question posed in the title of this thread,
was: "In the lowest levels of Hell."
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jay Flemma

Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2007, 11:02:24 PM »
Hey peter...so can you tell me if he actually built any courses that still exist today?

I checked out LA foundation...OMG!  That book of hours was amazing!

Theres a religious term too...a book of hours was a prayer book with the set psalms for a given day...Brother william!  Maybe Behr was channeling Eco!

Peter Pallotta

Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2007, 11:02:50 PM »
TE,

Lt General Robert Algernon Crosby?!

Oh man, am I ever embarrassed. I've just been calling him Bob.  Luckily, he's been too fine a gentlemen to stand on ceremony, and to call me out.

The war might not be over, you're right TE. But it does seem like a long road back....and I'm not even sure back to WHERE yet

Peter

Jay - no, see my post to Mike. But I think David S has a handle on it. And yes, even casual reading of some of Behr's writing suggest to me that he had been steeped in religious writing at some point in his life, even if he wasn't (or was, I don't know) a religious man later in life. Maybe it's just me, but I hear echos of the transcendent everywhere in his writing.



« Last Edit: November 20, 2007, 11:06:37 PM by Peter Pallotta »

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2007, 11:05:15 PM »
I thought I just answered that.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

TEPaul

Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2007, 11:10:17 PM »
Peter:

In this entire Crane vs Behr et al debate that has to do with the 20th century direction in golf there is something still there that essentially it was all fought over. And that is, of course, TOC---that supposed prototype of all golf architecture, that for whatever reasons no golf architect has ever really dared to truly emulate. Is that an oversight, a lack of guts or the "game mind of man"? And, so, the beat goes on! ;)

Jay Flemma

Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2007, 11:12:44 PM »
I thought I just answered that.

our posts must have crossed in the mail, I just saw it...thanks.  have we any pictures?

TEPaul

Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2007, 11:15:06 PM »
"Tom I --

I'm glad you've given this discussion a religious twist -- because my
first thought, upon seeing the question posed in the title of this thread,
was: "In the lowest levels of Hell."

Dan:

Hopefully some day you can free yourself from the mind-numbing strictures of editorism and find a way to proceed to the sunlit uplands of golf architecture nirvana.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2007, 11:16:03 PM by TEPaul »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2007, 11:24:22 PM »
Didn't Behr start his believe in/start his own religion based on numbers, although it wasn't like numerology?

You have to like a guy who thinks this:
     "For pleasure's sake I would rather play a four-ball match, but I consider the foursome as a far higher form of the game for the following reasons: It is distinctive from the twosome
where the four-ball is not. It demands a method of play peculiarly its own; that is, your partner's game has always to be taken into consideration. This may be said of the four-ball, but its application is different.
     The pleasure in the game of golf lies largely in the practice of self restraint. It is a battle against the weak side of human nature. The perplexities as to the right method of
play, together with the difficulties of a course, are the obstacles one has to contend with. Now, your partner is just one more moral hazard. The attitude which he assumes toward you, and how you allow it to take effect, has largely to do with the way you play. Therefore, the interchange of sympathy is greater, and the game is placed on a higher mental plane. It gives both the good and the bad.
     The general opinion seems to be that we prefer the four-ball because we get more play. There is something underlying this. Generally speaking, we have not, nor do we take
enough time in anything to appreciate its fine points. The foursome may be compared to a fine old wine that must be sipped and taken slowly to appreciate; the four-ball to a cocktail, a heterogeneous combination of liquors taken in one gulp, pleasing to the taste, but bad for the system. And I really think the four-ball is contrary to the finer points of the game or its system. It tends to minimize the responsibilities of the golfer. If this is true, the four-ball is contrary to the very charm and essence of golf, which is the practice of self restraint." - M. Behr
 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #40 on: November 20, 2007, 11:29:15 PM »
From RSFGC.....













"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Peter Pallotta

Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2007, 11:31:18 PM »
Jim
thanks very much for that. I've never read it before, and it also shows how good and clear and affecting a writer Behr could be. And what really strikes me is that the man who wrote that wasn't some casual golfer or golfing philosopher - he was a top-flight champion, one who also knew all about -- and was very succesful at -- the 'competitive' aspects of the game. I think he was just much more well-rounded and sane than most.

Peter
« Last Edit: November 20, 2007, 11:36:25 PM by Peter Pallotta »

TEPaul

Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2007, 11:44:51 PM »
"The pleasure in the game of golf lies largely in the practice of self restraint. It is a battle against the weak side of human nature."


OH MY GOD!

(Dare I ask what he thought the 'weak side of human nature' was?)

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2007, 11:48:06 PM »
I don't think Max would have like Ivan Bosky's term, 'greed is good' if that is what you mean, Tom.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Rich Goodale

Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2007, 11:50:49 PM »
"The pleasure in the game of golf lies largely in the practice of self restraint. It is a battle against the weak side of human nature."


OH MY GOD!

(Dare I ask what he thought the 'weak side of human nature' was?)

Hmmmm...

This reminds me of General Ripper in "Dr. Strangelove."  Did Behr ever write of "purity of essence?"

TEPaul

Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #45 on: November 20, 2007, 11:58:16 PM »
"This reminds me of General Ripper in "Dr. Strangelove."  Did Behr ever write of "purity of essence?"

Richard the Quintuple Obtuse:

YOU remind me of General Ripper in Dr. Strangelove!

Why don't you just finally admit it---that the only reason you incessantly quip and joke about Max H. Behr is because the man and his prescient mind is simply entirely too challenging for you?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2007, 12:01:46 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2007, 12:07:41 AM »
""The pleasure in the game of golf lies largely in the practice of self restraint. It is a battle against the weak side of human nature."


I wonder if Behr could've as easily said;

The pleasure in the practice of golf course architecture lies largely in the practice of self restraint. It is a battle against the weak side of human nature."

Rich Goodale

Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2007, 02:50:00 AM »
Tom

As long as you dredge up quotes like the above, I'll keep on quippin'.  They deserve no less.

Rich

Jay Flemma

Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2007, 07:41:12 AM »
David those pix are great, thanks!  

TEPaul

Re:Where is the best place to read the largest amount of writing by Max Behr?
« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2007, 07:49:32 AM »
"Tom
As long as you dredge up quotes like the above, I'll keep on quippin'.  They deserve no less."

Rich:

I realize that completely. Mental myopia is a real condition. From you I've never expected more.