[Mark_Fine]

Philip,
You know Tillie as well as anyone and I won't argue with your observations for The Black.  But I will still say that rarely if ever has a U.S. Open set up done good things for golf or golf courses in general.   Just think about some of the examples and precedents that are set by U.S. Opens:

- The rough is ususally kept so high and thick that cows would choke on it.  But having said that, the graduated rough idea is interesting, kinda like the haircuts some young kids get. Superintendents can have some fun out there with five different height mowers grooming the rough grass    At least they won’t have much fairway grass to worry about cutting  
- Speaking of fairways, hand mowing of fairways on U.S. Open set ups can be practical and cost effective as there is so little fairway left on the course that only two or three passes are required to cut it.  Expensive fairway mowers can be replaced with all the rough mowers needed to cut the graduated rough.  
- It is hard to put (or leave) contour in the greens when they are rolling so fast that you can walk to the hole after you putt and be still waiting for your ball to get there.  Rumor has it that hardwood flooring companies are bidding high as to who will sponsor the proposed practice green for the next tournament.  
- These setups show that “angles of play” are overrated.  Just hit it down the center ribbons of fairway and be done with it  
- Fairway bunker maintenance can be reduced because there is no need to worry about raking sand in the fairway bunkers.  Most are so far out of play (they really should be called “rough bunkers” ), that no ones gets in them.  Then again, sometimes an architect is hired to move them all in next to the thin strips of remaining fairway.  Forget about all that original design intent nonsense.  This game is changing to be simply “hard” and without much thought required  
- From these set ups we realize that William Flynn was right when he said some 80 years ago that 8000 yard courses were going to be needed as the game spiraled out of control.   What Flynn wasn’t smart enough to realize is that the beauty of these super long courses allows more tickets to be sold.  With all the extra real estate needed there is more room to spread out galleries.
- The 500 yard par four is old news but the 300 yard par three is now a really cool idea.
- The 700 yard par five is chomping at the bit just waiting to get its 15 minutes of fame (that is probably all it will get as the 750 yarder is right behind it)

To answer Jeff's question about what do you do - You address the "problem" and not keep addressing the "symptoms of the problem", e.g. providing a tissue to someone with a cold doesn't help the cold.  Same goes with many of the "tissue" type fixes to address the scoring issue in U.S. Opens as I addressed above which the USGA is so consumed with.  They forget what precedent and example they are setting for the game of golf and its playing fields.

Just my opinion,
Mark

[Jeff_Brauer]

Phillip,

Sounds like you were consulted somewhat about the changes as a Tillie expert?

I can't comment on them but do wonder why they felt they were nessecary when Tiger won at 2 under.  More specifically, if no one made eagle at the 4th, why does it need to be toughened with a bunker?

What's odd (to me) is that we like to preserve older courses to see how Tiger would play it in comparison to Hogan, for example. In one sense, BP had to be restored to championship condition by Rees for 2002, and it would be nice to see how that version of a restored course would play just a few years later without tweaking it some more, just for the comparison.

[Jeff Loh]

mark
this usga stuff does get into your head even if you don't realize it. when i played friday the tee on nine was up--but i HAD to go back to the 2002 markers (which are very cool) and play from there. now even from those tees it was playing 420 downwind so i didnt feel like a total idiot. but it begs the question---why did i do it? i should know better. of course i walked back to the new back tee (460-ridiculous!) but only for a look

phil

any thoughts on the angle of the new back tee on 13? kinda straightens out the hole and takes that cool big tree on the right out of play. and the bunker on the left side of the landing area?  no eagles in 02? why change it?
thanks
jeff  

[Brad Klein]

For the record, there were two eagles recorded at the par-5 4th hole and two at the par-5 13th at the 2002 U.S. Open. None of which, by my reckoning, suggests that the holes were in any way deficient, easy or readily accessible in two

[Phil_the_Author]

Brad,

When you stated, "For the record, there were two eagles recorded at the par-5 4th hole and two at the par-5 13th at the 2002 U.S. Open. None of which, by my reckoning, suggests that the holes were in any way deficient, easy or readily accessible in two..." that is correct.

What I said was that there wasn't a single eagle at either hole made as a result of reaching the green in two and sinking a putt. All four of those eagles were as a result of chipping in from the fairway. I was especially surprised that none were made on 13 as a number of players did reach in two including Tiger on Sunday.

Jeff, unfortunately the only way to lengthen 13 was to put the tee back where they did. They couldn't go further back from where they were as there wasn't any more ground left as it drops straight down into a large drainage area.

The unexpected result though, in my opinion, will be that the hole will now become much more strategic in play as the left-side bunker will definitely be in play for many of the players and the cross-bunker past it will affect the decision-making process of those who will try to reach it in two.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Jeff, unfortunately the only way to lengthen 13 was to put the tee back where they did. They couldn't go further back from where they were as there wasn't any more ground left as it drops straight down into a large drainage area.

The unexpected result though, in my opinion, will be that the hole will now become much more strategic in play as the left-side bunker will definitely be in play for many of the players and the cross-bunker past it will affect the decision-making process of those who will try to reach it in two.

Phil- another unexpected result though is that #13 will no longer be an AW Tillinghast golf hole.  Does that make you sad?  It does me.

I defended the work Rees did to Bethpage Black as being a more then adequate compromise for the greatly improved conditions for the public that plays the golf course.  Enough is enogh now.  These new changes and specifically the new green and bunkers on 14 and the new bunkering on 4 and 13 are beyond acceptable.  Why is a score of -3 for a US Open tournament a mandate to deface and trick up a masterpiece?

[Don Dinkmeyer]

Jeff Brauer said:
What's odd (to me) is that we like to preserve older courses to see how Tiger would play it in comparison to Hogan, for example. In one sense, BP had to be restored to championship condition by Rees for 2002, and it would be nice to see how that version of a restored course would play just a few years later without tweaking it some more, just for the comparison

This is an EXCELLENT point - I'd love to see the comparison, even if its only scoring per round AND yardage on a hole. The Hogans of the world used (inferior?) balls and sticks, right? Still they par, birdie, bogey. Sorta boggles my mind...

[Matt_Ward]

I saw this thread a short time ago and only now have time to comment.

The Bethpage Black I started to play well over 30 years ago is no longer the same Black. In so many ways the Black is akin to Barry Bonds -- the version before the BEEFING up and the current version one sees today.

I don't doubt the turf improvements were an absolute blessing. But, the inane desire to stretch out the course even more -- to narrow the fairways on such a daily basis and this penchant for so-called improvements to holes like #9, #13 and #14, to name just three, when such inferior holes like #18 remain in place boggles my mind.

The Black has become a M-U-S-C-U-L-A-R course beyond any real need. The daily rough conditions also are far beyond the daily capabilities of even seasoned players. You see I have no issue with high rough -- even haylike offerings -- provided fairway cut are kept sufficiently wide. That's not the case now.

You also have silly fairway cut patterns -- witness the situation seen with #12 and #15. Instead of giving players an opportunity to take a driver down the short side and benefit from the play -- the rough cuts only force the driver to be played further to the right.

I am a mega fan of BB -- have played the layout for well over three decades but I would just hope that Mike Davis will make the appropriate adjustments for daily play when the US Open comes back in less than two years.

We shall see ...

[Andrew Cunningham]

Matt,

Is not one of the great thrills in playing Bethpage Black the chance to get a glimpse of what a Tour Pro might struggle with at a US Open?  I completely agree that virtually anything that the USGA does to a course in preparation for a Major really doesn't benefit anybody but the USGA.  However, having played BB this summer I loved the extremely narrow fairways, very thick and penal rough, and the world class conditioning.  Especially the conditioning.  For $128 it was and is the best value in Championship golf.  



The all-world 4th.  My personal favorite.

[Matt_Ward]

Andrew:

You made my point.

If you love what it is now -- you would have REALLY LOVED what it was prior to all this steroid-driven desires to simply lengthen for lengthen sake and to overly narrow the drive zones which reduce, if not outright eliminate, the angles that made playing BB so much more rewarding than what you see today.

BB is now moving further and further away from so many of the grand elements that made it one of my personal favorite courses to play. Like I said, Mike Davis can do much for the '09 event -- no different than the grand manner in which he showed off the unique aspects that lie at the heart of Oakmont from this year's past US Open.

We shall indeed see what happens ...

[Jim Sweeney]

I agree with the comments against the bunker on # 4. There seems to be no point as far as the US Open goes.

I assume the fairways cvannot be widened for daily play due to different types of grasses in the fairways and roughs. Is this true? If not, why does the course not widen the fairways for daily play?

Is it necessary to keep the roughs at US OPen heights and thickness for daily play? Can't the course keep the roughs at, say, 2 1/2"? It will grow back for an Open set up. The USGA has no control over course operations on a daily basis, except in the run up to the champiopnship. (Even though the USGA agronomists visit a course for up to five years before an Open, the "grow in" is done during predominantly in the year of the tournament.)

Although 25-30 yards of fairway is enough, it should be in the right place. If it has been moved in such a way as to take away the most strategis approaches, that is a problem, IMO. I would advocate in any case a wider intermediate cut so that slightly missed tee shots can be played albeit with reduced spin and accuracy.

Nobody on this thread has mention (that I have seen) the USGA's plan to reduce the thickness of the rough for the '09 Open.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim S:

What you have mentioned should be on the immediate radar screen for Mike Davis and the USGA.

The issue with BB is that its reputation is being cemented through a bastardization of the course in following the formulaic style the USGA advocates for the US Open.

I often think BB should follow what was said of Ronald Reagan, "let Reagan be Reagan."

BB, unfortunately, has been altered to be a narrow bowling alley with limited playing angles and with rough that is extremely dense and unforgiving.

Allowing the Black to play wider and faster would be a real eye-opener and most refreshing. Sadly, that will not likely be the case and the tagline "monster" or "beast" will forever be etched in the minds of so many who see the event or play the course in the years ahead.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jim, the reason for the narrow fairways on the Black has nothing at all to do with the grass, rather it was a decision made by the park to present the public with an opportunity to experience US Open conditions. That simple. Whether one agrees with it or not there is nothing more to it than that.

Though I am not at liberty to share much of what I know, in respect to Matt & other's comments, it has been 'strongly suggested' to the powers-that-be at Bethpage that they reconsider the widths of the fairways on the Black and widen them out a bit. In fact they will have to be to be at the planned Open widths for 2009.

As far as the height of rough for future Opens, there was a recent memo sent to all the superintendents from the USGA that stresses just how important they view the work done by these dedicated men. It also stresses how the rough is NOT to be made ridiculas and the heights that the USGA expects that it will be cut to. In addition, it was also mentioned that they do not want to see rough that has been overseeded. They are actually looking to see the players consider the real option of being able to play shots forward rather than sideways.

[Matt_Cohn]

The whole idea of making the course "harder" for a US Open by taking out 5" tall, thick, unpredictable, gnarly rough and putting in a flat-bottomed, perfectly raked, manicured bunker is silly.

[HamiltonBHearst]

Good to know that Bernadette Castro is in charge of course set-up rather than the superintendent.

I am not sure BB should be on any "top 100" lists when the "normal" course set-up is so idiotic.

[Phil_the_Author]

Hamilton,

Berbadette Castro stopped serving as Parks Commissioner at the beginning of this year. Also, she wasn't the one who made the decision on fairway widths.

[Matt_Ward]

Phil:

There wasn't anything wrong with the ole BB. The idea -- truly silly one I might say -- that people want to experience US Open rough conditions may be there for the first time (if it's there at all) and then quickly leave after the first few holes.

BB possesses a range of architectural elements that have been pushed aside or limited because of this inane pursuit to be the "toughest" or the "longest," etc, etc.

Let me point out that I am a mega fan of BB and have likely played it more times than just about any person who posts on this site.

BB doesn't need the kind of assistance that I have seen firsthand.

Again, let the ole BB shine through.

[Ted Kramer]

I never understood some of the extreme reaction by some of the GCAers to changes made to courses. I used to think it was a bit absurd. But I can honestly say that putting a new bunker on the left side of #4 will absolutely piss me off . . . That is a TERRIBLE idea. UGGGHHHHHHH. Leave the friggin course alone . . . please don't ruin it . . .please.

-Ted

[Phil_the_Author]

Matt,

If there is a bigger BB fan and nut out there than me it just might be you!

Just a few comments on what you mentioned:
 
"There wasn't anything wrong with the ole BB. The idea -- truly silly one I might say -- that people want to experience US Open rough conditions may be there for the first time (if it's there at all) and then quickly leave after the first few holes."

As I've mentioned to others (Hi Geoff), my explaining who was responsible for and the reasoning behind the decision to maintain the fairway widths on the Black as they did is NOT any indication whatsoever as to whether I believe it was correct or good.

"BB possesses a range of architectural elements that have been pushed aside or limited because of this inane pursuit to be the "toughest" or the "longest," etc, etc.'

The idea of creating the toughest course of all in BB is not a new concept. This goes back to Tilly and the design of the course being different than the others. This truly is Tilly's 'Pine Valley' and he wrote his article "Mankillers" citing that there just two mankiller courses in the U.S. above and beyond all others - Pine Valley and Bethpage Black or the Black leopard as he refered to it.

As far as the "longest" is concerned, you seem to forget that Tilly put in a load of exceptionally long par-4's and 2 par-5's that measured 600 (#7) & 586 (#13) yards when it opened.

"Let me point out that I am a mega fan of BB and have likely played it more times than just about any person who posts on this site."

I take umbrage with anyone who would disagree with your feeling about the Black!

"BB doesn't need the kind of assistance that I have seen first hand."

 I disagree... it definitely needed major assistance before the Open and received it to mostly great acclaim. The question is whether or not the new work is necessary (the added length on several of the holes IS and will not be used in normal play so it DOESN'T change the course as it stands or plays for the regular golfer, while the new 14th is IMHO a large improvement as well as being a true restoration as far as the back and right-side green recovery is concerned)

"Again, let the ole BB shine through."

By this do you mean that you finally recognize that changing 18 to a drivable par-4 as an idea was a monumental mistake?!?   (Couldn't help myself buddy!)

[Matt_Ward]

Hey Phil:

A couple of quick retorts ...

The desire to MONSTER SIZE all the changes at BB is totally unnecessary. The '02 Open more than proved the point.

Adding length to the 9th, basically turning the 14th on its head and adding even more length to #13 was purely an overreaction.

Let me also point out that while you have sidestepped answering whether or not the narrowing is appropriate -- I can say this for certain -- it was carried to the upteeeeenth level and was not necessary.

The overhaul of BB was more than needed prior to the '02 event -- this is especially so in the superb turf conditions that are consistently present. The desire to manicure the place and then have near brillo strength rough is overkill to the max.

Phil, the issue is not that assistance with turf / layout was needed priot to the '02 event. No one, least of al me, is saying otherwise. It's what is happening on the lead-up to the '09 championship.

Last thing - if people can make changes to other areas of the course then dealing with the lame closer is one place that real effort should be targeted. I won't let my pet peeve issue die that quickly !

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