Question for the Masses or the Experts

[Sean_A]

I see an awful lot of bunkering on courses these days.  The Pound Ridge pic thread is another example of such ott bunkering.  However, my question concerns the grass around the bunkers.  Is there some sort of construction/maintenance reason(s) for the little circle-like areas of rough around the bunkering?  I ask because it seems a very popular thing to do regardless of the aesthetic compromise (imo anyway).  Below are a few examples.




Ciao

[TEPaul]

"Is there some sort of construction/maintenance reason(s) for the little circle-like areas of rough around the bunkering?"

Sean:

Yes there is. It's basically because it's easier to maintain (keep alive) that way. Grass on bunker surrounds can take a real beating for a lot of reasons---such things as south-facing banks, the weight of mowing machinery, tire-wear damage etc. It seems to survive better if it's longer rather than shorter such as fairway height.

The mystery is why it's possible to keep grass on bunker surrounds so short in other places in the world but that it's rarely done in America.

I believe there're various agronomic reasons for that including some agronomic reasons that probably aren't very good.

There's an old saw that in other parts of the world they try to stop grass from growing but in America they're always trying to make it grow. There's probably some truth to that and this condition you question may be somewhat the result of that.

[Rich Goodale]

Good post, Sean.  One thing that strikes me is that a lot, if not most, of the old UK bunkers have those raised fronts not through design, but through play (splash up of sand during attemped recoveries).  Part of the regular maintenace practices for these bunkers is to reduce the raised fronts rather than consecrate them (good example, the geenside bunkers to the left of the 6th green at Dornoch).

For whatever reason (probably marketing or lack of confidence that their bunkers will evolve "properly" over time), US archies (including Dye and most of the other MFAs) seem to want to recreate the end of sell-by date look of UK bunkers from Day one, and cast that look in stone.  In order for those sorts of bunkers to be maintainable, you NEED that collar of thick rough.  So you get:

--immediate eye candy
--bunkers maintained per schedule rather than evolution
--stupid unplayability

Per the latter point, just look at Mike Cirba's most recent reports on Merion.  Great course, but even 6-7 years later, they still don't seem to have a clue as to how to manage their bunker "restoration" project.  When I played there with Mike in 2001, my summary comment was, "Look ugly, play great."  I assume then, that the Groucho Marx eyebrows would evolve into something more user-friendly.  I seem to have been wrong.

I think that parkalnd courses, whether in the US or the UK or wherever, should NEVER try to imitate links course.  As I said on the other thread, I spent a few scary nights in the woods of Pound Ridge when I was a sprog, and the last thing I would have ever though of from that terrain was golf, much less links golf (now that I know what it is).  In this case, Pete Dye should be ashamed.

Rich

[TEPaul]

"I think that parkalnd courses, whether in the US or the UK or wherever, should NEVER try to imitate links course."

Rich:

That may be or may turn out to be a pretty good working rule of thumb. "Links" looking bunkers (and some of their surrounds) may not only be pretty hard to do in the parkland style setting but it also seems to create a pretty odd looking juxtapositon.

I guess part of the problem is many golf courses do not really know what type or style they are, if one even ought to assume they are some particular type or style.

One of the most interesting I'm aware of in this vein is Long Island's The Creek Club. In my opinion that course has three very distinct styles of golf and architecture within it (and for a most interesting pre-golf course reason) and that those three styles should actually be enhanced to make them as distinct as possible from each other and that nothing should be done to homogenize them.

[Adam Clayman]

I recently asked an archie about this form of presentation on his links course. His response was the lamest. He liked the aeshthetic created by the contrast.

It was pure poppycock and affected playability to the extent of me realizing how full of shit people can be.

[Phil_the_Author]

One of the "masses" here...

I personally don't care for this. Bunkers should sit where they are placed. If they intrude into the fairway their front edges should be at fairway height as the design intent is clearly to punish the miss-aimed or -hit shot. In fact many of the great architects, from the ODG's to today's YLG's (Young Living Guys) believe(d) in having the entrance to bunkers of this type be lower than the fairway leading up to them and to actually encourage a ball rolling to "find it's way" into the hazard. With rough collars this wonderful design feature becomes lost.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I recently asked an archie about this form of presentation on his links course. His response was the lamest. He liked the aeshthetic created by the contrast.

It was pure poppycock and affected playability to the extent of me realizing how full of shit people can be.

Adam,

With all due respect to both of you, the gca probably walked away muttering the same thing about you.

TePaul has it right, under other American conditions, but the supers could probably answer better what it would take to change that maintenance practice and I look forward to hearing some answers.

My experience, looking at my own courses is that bent fw's can be maintained at about 22% slopes if the mower is making no turns, and about 19% where they make turns, without signifigant damage.    The slopes around those deep bunkers are 45% or more so it's not practical.  Just my experience from the gca side in northern climates like MN.

I think the front edge could be mowed closer, if desired, although there is probably a one foot deep steep bank we don't see that would still have to be mowed by hand.  Doesn't the PGA Tour mow many bunker banks close to assure the ball gets in the bunker to make the shot "more fair?"  For those who think bunkers are too easy, I would think they would like the shaggy grass around the bunker, and landing there would be the true penalty, no?

[JNagle]

From our standpoint this has nothing to do with a "look"  Or how a bunkers appears on the day it opens.  In nearly all instances wherein a course is reconstructing their bunkers there is a limit on how long they will allow a course to be under construction.  In nearly 95% of bunker projects the areas immediately surrounding bunkers are sodded.  Available sod is limited to selective types.  Most, correct me if I am wrong, use a fescue/blue blend.  This provides contrast because of the particular grass colors, although, that is VERY LOW on our priority list.  The reason for the blend is that either one of the two varieties will thrive. The fescue will survive in the drier sandy soils.  The blue will withstand more foot traffic.  There are instances where Supt.  will use all fescue or all blue.  It really depends on their desires, and the intended "look" (maintained or shaggy - allowing seedheads to develop).  I personally love the look employed by Renaissance, C & C, Gil and some others.  

[Adam Clayman]

Jeff, With all due respect and emoticon intentionally omitted, you must be spending too much time with Forrest. The use of standard parkland maintenace practices on links course is wrong on many levels. Defending it because of a personal aesthetic preference, ignoring the playability, is half-assed.

BTW, Have you been practicing your parfume scent detecting? Where can I send any Ascots I might come across?

[Andy Hughes]

Sean, I asked this same question a year or two ago and the best answer at the time seemed to be maintainability.  I am still not clear on how links courses manage to maintain short grass fully around some bunkers and other types of courses can not.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff, With all due respect and emoticon intentionally omitted, you must be spending too much time with Forrest. The use of standard parkland maintenace practices on links course is wrong on many levels. Defending it because of a personal aesthetic preference, ignoring the playability, is half-assed.

BTW, Have you been practicing your parfume scent detecting? Where can I send any Ascots I might come across?

Adam,

Sorry if I offend, even with smiley......

Not knowing exactly what Links course you are talking about, and the grasses, etc., I was really picturing the photos shown in formulating my answer to the question.......

Even so, its very possible that the course you mention is more of a faus links, with turf and soil conditions vastly different from Scottish seaside conditions that would make an exact match of links conditions impossible.  

I believe that if it was possible agronomically, it might have been done.  Of course, its possible you are correct, and the gca just feels like a modern course should have a mix of old and modern sensibilities. Most do, actually, even the retro course designs and in some ways, its more "sincere" to adapt the design to modern maintenance, grasses, etc. than it is to artificially copy some older style.  After all, the old links courses didn't copy anything probably because they had no older golf courses to copy.

I just pictured the gca wondering why he had to take time to answer some agitated questions from a golf design nut. Smiley omitted to be consistent with your post...... (D'oh!)

[Adam Clayman]

Jeff, Interesting you assume agitated. It was not.

The course played very firm, like a links. Was built on sand that happened to have the perfect mix of organics, according to USGA Specs. The architect did a wonderful job of using what was there and moved little earth to create the GC. On land pretty much unsuitable for much else.

 It was the only question I asked the gentleman and probably the only one who felt gypped out of the ability to creat specific shots due to this ambiguity in the overall presentation.

[Norbert P]

Then there's this style which I've seen in the Southwest.