[Bob Ellington]

Do greens with an abrupt rise like that require manual mowing, is that we don't see more of them? Otherwise, I find trying to judge a running shot like that highly rewarding. What are some good Road Hole imitations?

[Geoff_Shackelford]

That's a great question Bob, I wonder the same thing myself. Tom Doak created one at the Heathlands Course at the Legends in Myrtle Beach, and it's super. Especially because it's on a short par-5 (the seventh, which is what I think the Road Hole green is better suited for, not for long two-shotters. I loved trying to go for that green in two with a long iron or four wood. What a fun shot and so many options and possibilities for disaster!Perhaps the Morrissetts will build one at the Carthage Club???

[Allan Robertson]

Do you really expect these modern architects to understand one of the great strategies in golf?I built that hole in 1842 and it still remains, what many believe to be, the greatest hole in golf.If you do not agree with me, name me one better.

[Gib_Papazian]

There is an absolutely fabulous Road Hole green at NorthShore CC on Long Island that is a must see. Some of that track is Tillie and some is Raynor, but that is definitely some of the Seth-man's coolest work.  

[Ran Morrissett]

I agree with Geoff - the Heathland's 7th is a super green complex - why indeed aren't there more? Carthage Club, here we come.I wonder if Renaissance's Heathland 7th is as good as Renaissance's restored version at Yeamans, as that one has trickier recovery shots over the back?

[Tony Dowling]

I am sure this is heresy but I found the approach shots to the 12 and 14 at St. A's more appealing than The Road Hole.On 12, you can hit one of several shots from a wedge down and at 14 you gotta figure out the way into the hole each day.I recall Geoff's comments about 12 at Augusta - too much hit and hope these days. I think the same can be said of 17 as a long par four.

[TEPaul]

TonyAre you an American? That sounds a little like a GIR mentality. Wasn't it Bobby Jones who figured it best not to try to hit the 17th green in two-just a chip and a putt and you would be better off than most in the long run. As a low handicapper who is relatively short off the tee I can get into that strategy, I've gotten very good over the years at sneaking up on holes like that before it knows I'm coming!

[Geoff_Shackelford]

Tony and Tom,You both make valid points about the current state of the Road Hole. I guess that's why we love it so much. So many opinions about its merits. I do wonder about the green speed today and the build up from the bunker affecting play though. The run-up is pretty tough to hit with such a fast, small green. Then again, compared to the old days, technology and improved fairway conditions render the hole much more playable and reachable with an iron. But again, it's like 10 at Riviera. I just don't understand why modern architects do not take the basic principles of these two holes/greens and create all sorts of interesting spin offs, particularly bunkerless versions.On another note, there is one more modern Road Hole green out there. It's on Jack Nicklaus's New Course at Grand Cypress. The green is dreadful because he turned it around and made it a left-to-right angled number (who else but Jack would do that?)! It's too bad to, because I think the course is just about his intrigueing work! Some of the contouring, bunkering and strategy out there is really, really good. If I had to choose one course to play in Orlando (and please pray I don't get stuck with such a dilemma), it'd be Jack's New Course.Geoff

[Bill Brightly]

Bump, for fun

[Bill_McBride]

Tony and Tom,You both make valid points about the current state of the Road Hole. I guess that's why we love it so much. So many opinions about its merits. I do wonder about the green speed today and the build up from the bunker affecting play though. The run-up is pretty tough to hit with such a fast, small green. Then again, compared to the old days, technology and improved fairway conditions render the hole much more playable and reachable with an iron. But again, it's like 10 at Riviera. I just don't understand why modern architects do not take the basic principles of these two holes/greens and create all sorts of interesting spin offs, particularly bunkerless versions.On another note, there is one more modern Road Hole green out there. It's on Jack Nicklaus's New Course at Grand Cypress. The green is dreadful because he turned it around and made it a left-to-right angled number (who else but Jack would do that?)! It's too bad to, because I think the course is just about his intrigueing work! Some of the contouring, bunkering and strategy out there is really, really good. If I had to choose one course to play in Orlando (and please pray I don't get stuck with such a dilemma), it'd be Jack's New Course.Geoff

If Geoff thinks it's difficult to hit the Road Hole green the normal way, he should try it as #1 on the Reverse Old Course (#1 tee to #17 green).   That was a butt puckerer for sure - road on the left, bunker on the right, just off the center axis from that direction where it's extremely narrow........

[Chris Kane]

If Geoff thinks it's difficult to hit the Road Hole green the normal way, he should try it as #1 on the Reverse Old Course (#1 tee to #17 green).  That was a butt puckerer for sure - road on the left, bunker on the right, just off the center axis from that direction where it's extremely narrow........

It is only a wedge though!

[Bill Gayne]

The road hole was the inspiration for the fifth hole at Augusta National. I don't know the history of changes on the hole but here's the green in 2003.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Like Geoff, Ran, TEPaul and others, I don't understand why more "Road Hole" greens haven't been built.

It's got to be one of the great green configurations, including surrounds, in Golf.

# 7 at NGLA is pretty good.

There's nothing sharp/steep about the footpad at TOC

[Mark Pearce]

As said in another recent thread, Gil Hanse did a good one at Crail on the short par 5 1st on the Craighead course.

[JNagle]

Raynor built two Road Holes at the Metairie Country Club outside of New Orleans.  Both have been restored with slight tweaks as there were no clear pictures of the originals.  Even on the flat ground in NO the holes fit in beautifully.  I greatly enjoy the 13th at Rustic Canyon.

I will try and post photos of the holes from Metairie and North Shore.  Gib, there is a long standing debate about North Shore C.C. on Long Island.  What we have seen is that a great deal of the work there may in fact be Robert White.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I have built three recently, but only one has actually opened. (Sand Creek Station in Newton, KS)  Apparently, the earth hasn't wobbled off its axis and I haven't heard any negative comments second hand from golfers.  BTW I put it on a short par 5 as it originally was at TOC, and it has a very active railroad right behind it, which is what inspired it in the first place.

That might mollify the "goofy golf comments somewhat.  I think if you put it on a long par 4, few would like it anywhere other than the original.

The negative comments come from course operators, who fear the back pin is too tough and the shelf on the green is too hard to mow.  On the two unopened versions, one owner just shook his head (that one is on a driveable par 4, where I think it works) and another has already told me he wants to raise the front area to ease maintenance and speed play (this one is on a longer par 5)  I think I have convinced him to at least see how it is recieved before tearing it up.

[Jeff_Brauer]

BTW,

I think Fazio has built a Road Hole green that also has Redan characteristics, because I heard him refer to a Roden hole in an interview......what else could it be?  Its either that, or W has him on the payroll to make his speeches sound better by comparison!

[TEPaul]

How do you like the sound of this use of a Road Hole green?

It would be a par 3 and the green and surrounds could be even an exact duplicate of NGLA's #7.

Visualize a par 3 play at this green from the right.

The green would be turned very slightly on a right to left axis. The green would look like a big flat iron turned upside down with the narrow front pointing at the tee and about 140 yards and the back up 200 yards but about twice as wide.

The green would be titled about 2% from right to left with a big deep bunker running all along the right side. On the left and mid green front to back would be the very deep and quite small Road Hole bunker. On the left would be about 15 yards wide of fairway running the length of the green and surrounding the Road bunker other than at greenside.

Depending on the pin this hole would offer a ton of strategic options. Even not depending on the pin the hole would offer a ton of strategic options. It would even offer a ton of strategic options for recovery shots!

Would we even attempt to make the lines of this green look like anything other than a big upside down iron? I hope not. Would it look remarkably engineered ala Macdonald/Raynor? Probably so and then we can have Wayne Morrison come down to see if he wanted to piss right in the middle of it.  

[Mark Pearce]

How do you like the sound of this use of a Road Hole green?

It would be a par 3 and the green and surrounds could be even an exact duplicate of NGLA's #7.

Visualize a par 3 play at this green from the right.

The green would be turned very slightly on a right to left axis. The green would look like a big flat iron turned upside down with the narrow front pointing at the tee and about 140 yards and the back up 200 yards but about twice as wide.

The green would be titled about 2% from right to left with a big deep bunker running all along the right side. On the left and mid green front to back would be the very deep and quite small Road Hole bunker. On the left would be about 15 yards wide of fairway running the length of the green and surrounding the Road bunker other than at greenside.

Depending on the pin this hole would offer a ton of strategic options. Even not depending on the pin the hole would offer a ton of strategic options. It would even offer a ton of strategic options for recovery shots!

Would we even attempt to make the lines of this green look like anything other than a big upside down iron? I hope not. Would it look remarkably engineered ala Macdonald/Raynor? Probably so and then we can have Wayne Morrison come down to see if he wanted to piss right in the middle of it.  

Sounds a great green but it's not a Road Hole green.  There's no road (a bunker cannot fulfill the strategic role of the road and the wall).

[TEPaul]

MarkP:

OK, then it's not a Road Hole green, it's NGLA's 7th green which has always been called a "Road Hole". If the club decides to never again call the 7th hole's green a Road Hole green I'm sure that'd be fine with us---we'll consider copying it anyhow.  

Maybe we should call it the "Upside Down Iron" green.  

[Bill Brightly]

"Sounds a great green but it's not a Road Hole green.  There's no road (a bunker cannot fulfill the strategic role of the road and the wall)."

Mark,

You are partially right. The Road is OB and a penalty, and If it were not St. Andrews, if it were not the Old Course, if it were not the course of Old Tom Morris, if it were not the site of so many Open Chamionships, having a road so close to the green would be decried as a foolish thing.

St. Andrews gets away with it. All others attemting to pay homage, IMO, need to use a bunker. (I would be OK with a wall behind the bunker, but that is more of a stylistic feature.
I think there is something "respectful" in not trying to duplicate THE Road Hole down to the last detail. Does that make sense?

[TEPaul]

Bill:

I've always been under the impression that the road to the right of the green is not OB. Haven't we seen a lot of golfers in Opens just play the ball as it lay right off the road, and some even off the wall?

[Kalen Braley]

You are correct TomP,

The road is not OB and there is no relief from the wall on the other side of the road.  I do suspect that its OB on the other side of the wall though.  

[Mark Pearce]

"Sounds a great green but it's not a Road Hole green.  There's no road (a bunker cannot fulfill the strategic role of the road and the wall)."

Mark,

You are partially right. The Road is OB and a penalty, and If it were not St. Andrews, if it were not the Old Course, if it were not the course of Old Tom Morris, if it were not the site of so many Open Chamionships, having a road so close to the green would be decried as a foolish thing.

St. Andrews gets away with it. All others attemting to pay homage, IMO, need to use a bunker. (I would be OK with a wall behind the bunker, but that is more of a stylistic feature.
I think there is something "respectful" in not trying to duplicate THE Road Hole down to the last detail. Does that make sense?

Bill,

as has already been pointed out, the road is not OB and the wall is in play.  That makes for an altogether different set of strategic implications than a mere bunker.  In fact I suspect OB hard over the green would play closer to the Road Hole than a bunker replacing the road.

TomP,

Two nations divided by a common language again?  I'm not familiar with NGLA's 7th, I'm afraid but the "Upside Down Iron" green is a distinctive name and might work.  I see only confusion from the continued description of it as Road Hole green when it clearly doesn't work as one.

[R_Paulis]

Ridicule

The caddy implied getting there in two was foolhardy. The forward tees we were instructed to play from made the drive more challenging, but both our shots landed in the fairway. I was not tempted, but my partner was trying to make up a few as we finished the round.

A rumble of snickers could be heard as his low approach landed on the green, rolled off, gently bounded across the road and rested on some grass next to the stone wall. No, It was not the caddy that made his embarrassment grow. The double decker tour bus approached at this most inopportune time packed full of gawkers straining to see an iconic symbol at golf’s Mecca. Maybe my memory is not so clear, but I was standing closest to bus and I would swear I heard Feherty-type commentary emanating from inside the bus.

Five incredibly difficult shots later and I offered him the ball from four feet.

PS – I sort of remember being told the road was OB but my partner wanted the “experience” of playing it from that spot.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()