Innovative design or "doh, what the hell is that"???

[Kalen Braley]

I was recently thinking about:
* Redans
* Recalling a course I played where the green was sloped pretty steeply from front to back
* Remembering a comment TomD made several months ago about how playing a hole the best way sometimes means aiming over the green.

So I devised a very short par 4 that has many options off the tee and thought I would post it here and see what happens.  Consider the following:  (Yes I know, my artistic skills suck, but I think it captures the intent)



The hole is setup to play 175, 210, and 260 to the middle of the green from each respective tee box.  The green itself would ideally sit in a naturalistic site consisting of dunes land where either two ridges met or perhaps a cluster of small dunes creates a semi-circle bowl shape. While the green would be elevated in relation to the tee box, ideally these would not be too high so that the top of the flag could still be seen from the tee box.  A bunker would be placed on the tee box side of the dunes and two on the greenside. (The arrows in the fairway point in the uphill direction, not the downhill direction).  Hence the highest portions of the hole would be between the dunes and the green and fall away from there. The green surface would be multi-leveled that runs away from the player as they stand on the tee box and would be pitched at severe slope so that it drains downhill towards Fairway 2 and the bunkers.

From this point the player on the tee has 3 basic options:

1)  Lay up in fairway 1 short of the set of dunes/hillocks and then pitch a short shot (mostly blind) over the dunes to a green that is running away from you.
2)  Try to drive and hold the green with a long iron or wood in hand with the two bunkers past the green coming into play.
3)  Intentionally drive over the green complex to Fairway 2 and then attempt a short pitch back to the green which would now be running from back to front.  IMO, this giving you the best angle into the green.

The yardages I included are mostly just a guess.  The intent was to make it so that a player on each tee could play over the green if they wished. But yet would still have to hit a good tee shot to reach Fairway #2 for the best angle into the green.

Any thoughts?  (And yes I do have thick skin, so by all means fire away)

[Eric Smith]

Kalen,

I absolutely LOVE it! I'm imagining playing it and am so stoked as to what I'd do the first time I stepped on the tee!
AWESOME.

May I borrow it?  

[Matt_Cohn]

I think I put up a thread a while ago, or meant to, about the complete lack of holes that present a realistic option for the golfer to play past the hole or pin-high far to the side for the best approach to the green. This hole seems to present a very realistic and appealing option to hit the ball past the green on purpose.

I actually think it's a very interesting hole, Kalen. Good job.

[Chris Cupit]

I think the hardest thing for most to accept would be the hillocks in front.  I like the idea of a driveable par 4 that is truly reachable for ALL levels of players since 99% of the time the 20 handicapper who hits it 185 has no chance to enjoy "going for a great/miracle shot" and maybe making an eagle.

I don't mind the green faling away but the combo of a forced carry to a green falling away may be too much.  Maybe a very narrow entrance that may allow you to see your ball running up to and then over the green?

Also, at those yardages will people really consider it a par 4?

[Matt_Cohn]

Chris makes a good point - if you can't hold the green, then *every* shot goes over the green - not just the ones that do it on purpose - so why take a risk? There ought to be a realistic chance of hitting the green with a good shot, as well as the chance of trouble in the hillocks.

[Kalen Braley]

Eric,

No its mine, all mine!!  

Chris,

The dunes are there for a risk/reward component.  After all a short player can still drive short of them and have a short flip to the green.  For a par 4, I don't think that would be unfair or reasonable.  

As for the yardages, thats the whole point of it.  To break down barriers and misconceptions that yardage defines par.  I don't see any way how that could be called a par 3 in its current configuration.  Even a pro would have a tough time holding that green in 1.  Granted, it would likely not be a tough birdie for them as a par 4...but they could still make a big number there....

But then again, I really tried to make sure it was playable for all level of players while at the same time offering incentive for someone trying to actually hit it over the green "on purpose".

[Kalen Braley]

Matt,

If the hillocks were wispy and longish fescue, I think it could provide both of those opportunties.  It could hang up in the long stuff and you are screwed, or you could land it on the downslope and have it trickle out to the fringe and roll on the green.

As for going over the green, thats why the two bunkers exist on the far side of the green.  You can either drive over the bunkers to take them out of play, hence taking less risk, or assuming more risk by trying to drive and hold the green but knowing that the ball could end up in one of those bunkers.

I understand what you guys are saying about the fall away green being too severe, but once again one of the main themes of the hole is to intentionally get players to drive over the green to get an advantage with thier 2nd shot.  Sure I suppose an advantage could be not having the blind approach from fairway 1, but with a flip wedge, I don't think many would mind too much having to hit it over a small dune.

Just my $.02, keep firing away.  

[Cliff Hamm]

Not unlike #1 at Tobacco Road, but putting a green where the drive lands.

[paul cowley]

Kalen....10 years ago I proposed a similar hole for a course in SC...I called it a 180 degree dogleg, or the reverse hole.....but it didn't get built.

I think I described it on the 'quirk' thread a few months back.

Pace of play was a problem for some....but not with me.

I am sure the idea was a new one for you....as it was for me...along with the thrill of discovery....regardless if others had thought of it before.

Carry on....its always good to test the envelope.

[Chris Cupit]

Eric,

No its mine, all mine!!  

Chris,

The dunes are there for a risk/reward component.  After all a short player can still drive short of them and have a short flip to the green.  For a par 4, I don't think that would be unfair or reasonable.  

As for the yardages, thats the whole point of it.  To break down barriers and misconceptions that yardage defines par.  I don't see any way how that could be called a par 3 in its current configuration.  Even a pro would have a tough time holding that green in 1.  Granted, it would likely not be a tough birdie for them as a par 4...but they could still make a big number there....

But then again, I really tried to make sure it was playable for all level of players while at the same time offering incentive for someone trying to actually hit it over the green "on purpose".

If the shorter player laid up to have a flip wedge, would it be possible for him/her to stop the ball on the green?  I hear you about the yardage and I understand the point but I think the "doh factor" increases as 99% of golfers won't "get it".  Or, they just won't like it.

It seems like it would be a fun hole to play.

[Kalen Braley]

Paul,

I would have suspected that something similar has already been thought up and shot down.  I guess it was just my turn to be the goat, but hoped that the green orientation would provide an interesting wrinkle.

Chris,

I am thinking it would be possible to have the ball stop on the middle to front part of the green, but with a "back" pin it would take a near houdini like effort.

I also envisioned the bunkers on the far side of the green to be a deep pot bunker on the left, and a larger, but just as nasty bunker to the right.  (Something like the bunker on 14 at PD that sits to the right front side of the green)

[Sean_A]

Kalen

I like the idea.  At least its unusual.  One thought: could it be possible to design the green so it is more approachable from either the left or the right?  I am thinking that the layup zone doesn't have to be straight - it could be left or right and offer the advantage of a better angle of approach and/or a chance at placing the layup in a spot where the green can be seen (maybe a break in the dunes).  I could see good players who can easily reach the green take the layup option and trust to their wedge if there is a reward(s).  In fact, I can envision the hole being a par 4 from the back and a par 3 from the front as well - the ultimate in elasticity!

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen

I like the idea.  At least its unusual.  One thought: could it be possible to design the green so it is more approachable from either the left or the right?  I am thinking that the layup zone doesn't have to be straight - it could be left or right and offer the advantage of a better angle of approach and/or a chance at placing the layup in a spot where the green can be seen (maybe a break in the dunes).  I could see good players who can easily reach the green take the layup option and trust to their wedge if there is a reward(s).  In fact, I can envision the hole being a par 4 from the back and a par 3 from the front as well - the ultimate in elasticity!

Ciao

Sean,

I have thought of little wrinkles to this including different playing angles from the sides, but for forum pruposes was mostly curious what others would think on the overal concept.

In this iteration of the hole, the intent is very much to get the player to play over the green to get the best angle in.  And you are right, additional tee boxes could be added to make it a short par 3 as well.

Kind of as an add on, other than Paul, has anyone tried to put something like this into the ground?

[Garland Bayley]

Kalen,

I like the hole. It reminds me of how some of the touring pros are talking about playing #10 at Riviera.

EDIT: Also Tilly in Gleanings from the Wayside shows a hole that almost doubles back on itself using trees to prevent the tee shot from being aimed at the green. Solves the pace of play problem that PC referred to. I suppose on such a hole a narrow path through the trees could be cut close to the green on the pass by with a bad angle to the green that could not be accessed from the tee. Would give it even more characteristics similar to your hole.

[John Mayhugh]

I'd love to play this hole.  

[Kalen Braley]

Garland,

I had heard of that hole and saw a sketch of it.  The biggest complaint I would have with that is if you don't hit it far enough down the chute of trees, you have no 2nd shot in.

With this hole, you could hit a worm burner off the tee and still have a shot into the green, albiet from a "less-preferred" angle.  I would envision this hole being devoid of OB, water hazards, trees, although it could have some high whispy fescue to keep from making it too easy...

[Garland Bayley]

I believe Paul C is noted for putting buildings or leaving historical buildings on courses. Perhaps there could be a refreshment shack to duck into while the following group tees off.

[Jay Flemma]

I think I put up a thread a while ago, or meant to, about the complete lack of holes that present a realistic option for the golfer to play past the hole or pin-high far to the side for the best approach to the green. This hole seems to present a very realistic and appealing option to hit the ball past the green on purpose.

I actually think it's a very interesting hole, Kalen. Good job.

Both Strantz and Dye also do that on a regular basis...the safe play on a par-3 is to the BACK of the green.  Egs include 3 at Royal New Kent and 12 at Bulle Rock.

[David Federman]

Maybe I am just a traditionalist, but I like the hole from the other direction better as a 3 par. It would be an uphill long-iron or fairway wood to a steeply sloped back to front green, protected by deep bunkers on either side, which would bring the hillocks/dunes into play on the far side. Demanding, but fair.

I think your design on paper is one thing and has some appeal, but it is hard for me to visualize how it would play in real life. I think it might be considered "gimmicky." Sorry.

[Steve Wilson]

This hole bears far more than a passing resemblance to a concept TE Paul (who else?) was hallucinating about a few years back.  He described as a "playback" hole.  I would suggest delving into the archives to find the discussion, but with the volume of his postings we might never see the researcher again.

I tried to design a hole like this with the course designer that comes with some versions of the Links golf game.   On my approach to the hole, the tee shot was completely blind requiring a carry over a wilderness to a three tiered green with a lot of slope.  It was virtually impossible to stop the ball on the green from the tee side of the hole.  There was a bail out area to the left that provided a good look at the green and was the preferred shot.  I toyed with the notion of a ramp to the right that would allow a ball to feed redan like down to the green, but I could never get it just right and such a shot always ran off the back or the left side of the green.

I'd love to see a this hole on the ground.    

[Garland Bayley]

Hey Kalen,

Make all the par 4s like that. I can see it now, 18 holes in 50 acres.

[Ted Kramer]

It looks like a diagram in the Dr's office who told me I tore my ACL.

-Ted

[Kalen Braley]

Hey Kalen,

Make all the par 4s like that. I can see it now, 18 holes in 50 acres.

Garland,

Amen on this one.  It seems like you can get more "hole for your buck" on this one.  Fairway 2 would only need to extend 50 yards past the hole for the play over the hole.  And it could be used an alternate 3 or 4.

TomD needs to get something like this in the ground at Old Mac.  Can someone get Mike K on the horn, we need to chat    

[Kalen Braley]

It looks like a diagram in the Dr's office who told me I tore my ACL.

-Ted

Ted,

Too funny, when I first posted this, I thought "that looks like someone with a buggered up knee" and wondered when someone would chime in on that.  

[Garland Bayley]

And those two greenside bunkers need to be spectacles sloping towards the tee. Carry into them and guess what, you have a plugged lie on a down hill slope.   The Safest tee shot needs to carry well over the green. The green should not even be able to hold a putt from the front, let alone a tee shot.
 

EDIT: I guess your tall fescue in front of the green would be the clown's mouth.  

EDIT again: The hole would be named Bespecled Clown