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igrowgrass

Re: Firm & Fast, The Stimpmeter and The Thumper!?
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2008, 11:32:41 PM »
I think the USGA is claiming they built something that has already been used for years in the turf research field.
Its called a Clegg Hammer.  We used it on research plots when I worked at the Turf Research Farm. 
You drop it from Waist height (usually three reps in each plot) and it returns a number in Newtons.  We never knew what was considered firm, that was up to the statistics to determine.

http://www.sdinst.com/

JSPayne

Re: Firm & Fast, The Stimpmeter and The Thumper!?
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2008, 08:29:48 AM »
TEPaul,

I think you are a little off base. The complaints about the use of this device (including that by me) have absolutely nothing to do with the USGA being the one to implement it. My qualm is to HOW it is being used.

I whole-heartedly agree with many here who have said that these sort of tools are great....WHEN PUT IN THE RIGHT HANDS. As a superintendent, I have given serious thought to using this device, towards the same aim as the USGA, to monitor and strive to maintain some consistancy, and also to help try and solve other turf problems (like why one or two greens might be consistantly less firm than others......too much thatch? drainage issues? etc.)

However, when you have someone....ANYONE, not just the USGA....using these devices to simply go out on any course and objectively measure them up to a number that has been generated to relay a certain connotation of "firmness" or "softness", then you have a problem. Just like the use and data from the Stimpmeter, the results from testing with such a device should be site specific, and by no means should the raw numbers be used to compare between different courses. I think if you polled the majority of superintendents (and even pros and architects), you would find one of the biggest problems is dealing with complaints that "We need to get our greens rolling 12 on the Stimp like they do at Augusta" and then trying to explain why pushing the greens at that member's home course to that "speed" would be both severly detrimental to the turf as well as the pace of play on the course.

I stand by my statement that, similar to the current use of the Stimpmeter by the USGA, if we go around and strive to make every green, on every course, yeild a "speed of 11" and a "firmness of ##", we are only hurting the core values of the game as well as the turf it is being played upon.
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

JESII

Re: Firm & Fast, The Stimpmeter and The Thumper!?
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2008, 08:41:38 AM »
Tommy,

I defend the USGA at every turn around here...other than my opinion that they try too hard in their presentation of the golf courses for their Open I am fully supportive of their efforts and sympathetic to their obstacles...but this Thumper sounds like the creation of someone with too much time on their hands.

Are you capable of listing three things this toll will help with on a wide scale?

Sean_A

Re: Firm & Fast, The Stimpmeter and The Thumper!?
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2008, 08:49:43 AM »
Adam Clayman:

Interesting thought in that last post.

But most of the rest of the posts, man, I'll  tell you, it seems like on here if the USGA came out fore square behind Mother and apple pie most of you guys would find some way to condemn them for it or be suspicious of ulterior motives on their part. The attitude is both not impressive and a little depressing to boot. This isn't the first time it's occured to me that most of us on here are basically a bunch of inveterate automatic whiners!    :(

Tom

What a load of horse puckey.  I know you are a fan of the rules and their origins, but the first mantra of the game is to play the course as you find it.  I question the need to make everything consistent and further question why we need tools to measure consistency.  Like carts and yardage devices, these tools are a scam which take the player further from what the game is all about.  Step back and imagine what the game would be like if all was predictable.  When would we ever have the chance to bitch about why the ball didn't do this or that?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Joe Hancock

Re: Firm & Fast, The Stimpmeter and The Thumper!?
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2008, 08:54:51 AM »
I would never suggest that these tools aren't necessary in some way, shape or form, but I wish more superintendents would get back to the basics of being out on the course, observing and playing and simplifying things. Striving for consistency, be it speed, firmness, color, etc., just isn't necessary to play the game of golf. In my opinion, the inconsistencies add to the enjoyment and competition of the game.

Do greens committees feel they need a mad scientist on the grounds to justify the salary being paid, or is there a club somewhere that understands that a common sense superintendent is a a true value, regardless of cost?

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

TEPaul

Re: Firm & Fast, The Stimpmeter and The Thumper!?
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2008, 08:57:59 AM »
"TEPaul,
I think you are a little off base."

JSPayne:

Most people seem to think that too.

But seriously, your post certainly does bring up a very good point that it is not a good idea to use any tool that works in the direction of creating standardizations between courses when inherently that really can't be accomplished and shouldn't even be attempted for a myriad of reasons.

That does not seem to be what the USGA is suggesting with their Thumper but it wasn't what they suggested either with their stimpmeter, and looked what happened with the latter.

TEPaul

Re: Firm & Fast, The Stimpmeter and The Thumper!?
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2008, 09:07:03 AM »
"When would we ever have the chance to bitch about why the ball didn't do this or that?"

Sean:

I think you may've hit the nail on the head there. The inveterate automatic whiners on here are probably deathly afraid of anything that might reduce their opportunities to bitch about something!  ;)

This might actually go to the truth of Oscar Wilde's wonderful remark: "The only thing worse than being talked about it not being talked about."

"Horse pukey"?

I like that. It has a sort of old-fashioned garden party ring to it.

Sean_A

Re: Firm & Fast, The Stimpmeter and The Thumper!?
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2008, 09:17:22 AM »
"When would we ever have the chance to bitch about why the ball didn't do this or that?"

Sean:

I think you may've hit the nail on the head there. The inveterate automatic whiners on here are probably deathly afraid of anything that might reduce their opportunities to bitch about something!  ;)

This might actually go to the truth of Oscar Wilde's wonderful remark: "The only thing worse than being talked about it not being talked about."

"Horse pukey"?

I like that. It has a sort of old-fashioned garden party ring to it.


Tom

Its horse puckey (or perhaps pucky).  My mother had a pile of phrases which substituted for swearing.  Despite my claims that she really was swearing in a different dialect, I still got whopped upside the head.  She had a great name for my father when he was being particularly obstinate - a horse's neck.  I don't know, it must be a gene thing from Canada.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

BCrosby

Re: Firm & Fast, The Stimpmeter and The Thumper!?
« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2008, 09:17:34 AM »
This thread fleshes out something I told Dick Rugge in Houston last week when discussing the thumper. (A delightful guy, btw.) JSPayne's posts come closest to what I was trying to say.

The use of the thumper, stimp meters etc. all represent a specific view of how the game ought to be played and competitions conducted. The view is that the game ought to be played under conditions such that the link between excecution and results is as predictable as possible.

Those are things that have a high value to the USGA and that's how they want to conduct their championships. To do that you make playing conditions as consistent as possible. The bounce on the approach to the 2nd green will be identical to the bounce you get on the approach to the 14th and so forth across the course. Same goes for green speeds. Proper use of the thumper and stimp meters will get you that, ideally.

It's a perfectly reasonable approach.

It is, however, a fairly unique approach. There is nothing written in the stars that says that is the way competitions must be conducted. Other sanctioning bodies, such as the R&A (as best I can tell) and lots of ordinary golfers would not agree with that approach.

For example, JSPayne and others on this thread express views that are much closer to those of Bobby Jones, MacK, Behr, Simpson, Thomas, MacD, and the whole Golden Age throne room. The idea being that golf is bound up with playing on natural terrains (whether designed or not) and all the vagaries that suggests. Unpredicatable things happen, you get raw deals, you get lucky, and so forth. You are often unsure what will happen, even with good shots.

In short, there are lots of people - past and present - would not agree that rationalizing the link between execution and outcomes is of central importance in the game.

Bob

 
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 09:23:01 AM by BCrosby »

Brent Hutto

Re: Firm & Fast, The Stimpmeter and The Thumper!?
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2008, 11:25:25 AM »
I'll grant the committe running a tournament any one anal-retentive measurement they'd like to take. Use the Stimpmeter to try and standardize the green speeds and that's your one.

Beyond that and you look silly. I'd view a bunch of guys in jackets out there the night before a tournament thumping with their Thumper (tm) about the same as I'd view a bunch of guys in jackets outlining hazards with a parking-lot line template and a surveyor's transit. They'd look like people who have lost all connection with what makes golf an interesting and challenging pursuit that can last a lifetime.

Americans have a deep-routed belief that anything worth doing is worth doing on a standardized, factory type basis with a six-sigma quality plan in place. Bringing this attitude to the setup of a golf course would be hilarious if it weren't for the inevitable side effects that trickle down to courses all over the country.

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