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Patrick_Mucci

Re: A Routing Exercise for Wanna-be Architects
« Reply #75 on: September 08, 2008, 03:57:31 PM »
Bryan,

On paper they all look good and bad.

I like the basic routing with the exceptions noted previously.

What I hadn't expected was the introduction of the additional water features.

The bad part of the "official" routing has 12 holes close to the water.
That can only lead to lost balls, penalties and delays in play.
It's Floridaesque and undesirable in my mind.

I don't see the need to add water and the need to have so many holes come close to the water.

One of the things I like about Friar's Head, Sand Hills and Hidden Creek is the LACK of water coming into play.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Routing Exercise for Wanna-be Architects
« Reply #76 on: September 08, 2008, 04:33:39 PM »
Bryan,

It can't be a coincidence - no way.

In the original sketch I would have played #10 down 18 fairway - maybe not the final version.
But I would certainly play 11 down the 10th fairway - if I were ever to play - not likely.

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jeremy Rivando

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Routing Exercise for Wanna-be Architects
« Reply #77 on: September 08, 2008, 10:20:44 PM »
I've been working on the construction of this course for the last two seasons and we're close to finishing, 1 hole to seed and sod and then the fun part of tying up loose ends.

It's by no means an ideal property but the finished product is fairly solid. 

Patrick would be correct in his criticism of the water features, they are all on the right side and they come into play on 12 holes, I think this will be the biggest obstacle to overcome in the reviews, especially if you get out there and find a wicked slice has infringed on your game.  The course is certainly walkable, the walk from 13 green to 14 tee is the one inconvenience. 

There is a lot of width and the reality is that the water should not be a factor for the better player.  The course will be a challenge when the wind is up but on a calm day players will find they have a wedge in on a number of holes and there should be some good birdie opportunities. 

The best hole will most likely be the Par 5 10th, of which I lack a good panoramic shot, and the Par 4 3rd is the maybe the most picturesque.

I'm really starting to look forward to playing it next spring.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Routing Exercise for Wanna-be Architects
« Reply #78 on: September 08, 2008, 11:35:07 PM »
Patrick,

Here's the overlay for whatever it helps. 

Mike,

Clearly Mr Baynham was an insider.  Perhaps Jeremy could clarify.

The more I look at 10, the more I'm wondering if I've seen a boomerang shaped hole that goes clockwise (water on the inside for right hand slicers) vs counter- clockwise (like 18 at Sawgrass).

Jeremy,

How wide are the fairway corridors.  Looks narrow on the plan.  I assume they are not 50 yard wide fairways?  The tee shot on 7 looks very narrow with water on one side and OOB road on the other.  Is there mounding between the holes to help frame them and protect neighboring holes.

Were the ponds added because of drainage considerations and to provide fill to raise the fairways, or because Kevin or the ownership liked water features.  They certainly will add some drama for some of the clientele, but I think they are likely to impede pace of play and enjoyment for many.

It may be a relatively easy track for good players, but I'd guess the majority of play will be from corporate tournament players, for whom it looks like a challenge.

If you have any pics, please post them.








Jeremy Rivando

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Routing Exercise for Wanna-be Architects
« Reply #79 on: September 09, 2008, 01:12:33 PM »
Bryan,

You are correct about Chris Baynham, he works for Burnside, the engineering team.

The fairway widths are typically between 35-45yds wide, the 14th and 6th are the narrowest at 30yds. 

Plenty of room on the 7th.

There is a lot of containment mounding on the course, for safely measures and to block the sight of the continuous cart paths. 

The pond between 14,15,16 is the irrigation pond and the other ponds were built to provide drainage capabilities and  to generate fill material.

I believe they will try to keep a lot of the corporate tournaments on the existing 2 courses and have the new course available for daily play.  This could change and I agree that this could be a difficult course for those that rarely make it out but if it's a scramble does it really matter that much?

I have yet to post pictures and I keep getting an error, first my file size was to large, I've downsized them and now the error is that the upload folder is full.  I will work on figuring this one out and post some pics ASAP

Jeremy Rivando

  • Karma: +0/-0
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 02:15:14 PM by Jeremy Rivando »

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Routing Exercise for Wanna-be Architects
« Reply #81 on: September 09, 2008, 02:39:38 PM »
imghttp://farm4.static.flickr.com/3114/2843689418_0c6db9db27.jpg/img

Jeremy:

To post your pic you need to bracket [ ] img and bracket [ ] /img - I took the liberty of doing this for you on this one -

looks nice!



BTW, which hole is this?  I'm guessing #12?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 02:44:31 PM by Eric Smith »

Jeremy Rivando

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Routing Exercise for Wanna-be Architects
« Reply #82 on: September 09, 2008, 03:38:13 PM »
Thanks Eric, I appreciate the tip.  And yes it is the 12th, a 215yd  hole that will be one of the toughest on the course if it's windy, it plays right into the prevailing wind.

This is the Par 4 3rd


This is the Par 4 9th


The Par 4 15th, the two bunkers on this hole may be the best 2 on the course



Justin_Zook

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Routing Exercise for Wanna-be Architects
« Reply #83 on: September 13, 2008, 11:05:08 AM »
I saw this post crop up again last week and have only had time to post my version until now.  I know it's "past due" but why not throw my routing in the mix.  Here is mine...



1 - First hole plays slightly downhill to a green tucked behind the stream, hole will reminisce the first at The Old Course.  Maybe around 400 yards give/take.

2 - Being from Lancaster, PA, could I route a course without a bunch of crazy loops???  No.  The first loop starts at #2 which will play again about 400 yards give/take. 

3 - This is a short par 4 of about 300 yards.  Will generate lots of strategic, risk/reward interest.

4 - Hole plays about 370, again utilizing the stream as a hazard to the front of the green.  Modifications to internal design will be required as to differentiate itself from #1.

5 - Shortish par 3; it plays downhill and the green is well bunkered.

6 - Long par 5 at about 585ish yards.  Fairway will be wide, but due to greenside contours and bunkers, will favor a drive down the left, close to the pond.

7 - A "Bay Hillish" par 4 at about 450 yards.

8 - A par 3 that should kind of resemble the old 16th at Augusta but would also pull upon the brilliance of the 4th at one of those Baltusrol courses.

9 - A medium to short par 5 that plays longer than the yardage because the tee shot plays uphill.  Maybe a Redan green complex would do well.

10 - Being the number of one of the great par 3s in the world at Winged Foot, it would be equally as challenging.  Although this would play uphill and I am sure there are a few great par 3s down towards Philly that play uphill slightly.  It would be glorious.

11 - This is the start of the second cool little Lancastrian-esque loop.  It'd be a Par 4 at about 440 yards, dogleg left.  It would be downhill but the green would favor a shot coming from the precipice of the hill as opposed to a shot coming from the bottom of the hill.  It would be a "local knowledge quirk" and would be the source of much debate on Golf Course Architectural message boards, but after some discussion would be loved the world over.

12 - A long par 3 at maybe 240 yards or so.  Generous green with a generous undulation. 

13 - A short par 4 that plays up the hill.  Maybe only 360 yards and many players would only be left with a chip or pitch.  The green however will be more kind to the approaches made from 100 - 125 yards out because of bunkering and green contours.

14 - The start of the final 5 holes; all wrap around the property which I find to be very Ross-esque.  A downhill par 4 that plays over a hill.  The tee shot may be partially blind and the green would favor a shot coming from the left side of the fairway.  The fairway will be generously wide but would run up the side of the property line much like the 2nd hole does at Talking Stick (North).

15 - A long par 5.  Would not be as penal but would be as visually stimulating as the 12th at Oakmont.  It would not be overdone with all the framing (and not at all that the 12th at Oakmont does) but the designing of the hole would not be so excited about creating an interesting long par 5 that in all the giddiness, it becomes a gaudy monstrosity.

16 - A long par 4 with lots of bunkering interest.  Not that it would have a lot of bunkers, but the few bunkers that would exist on the hole would be very well placed and very interesting.

17 - A shortish par 4 at maybe 415 or so.  Lots of interest would be generated by the character of design.

18 - Last hole would simulate strategic playing issues as the 18th at Southern Hills does.  It would be a magnificent finishing hole.  It would be slightly long but not overly daunting. 

General course comments:
The clubhouse would be situated close to the road thereby eliminating needless costs associated with running yards and yards of sewer, cable, electric, etc.  The clubhouse is also situated on a part of the property with less character as other parts.  There is a driving range. 

The course will have the feel of an Oakmontish/Merionish customization of golf course architectural glory.  It will play to a yardage of about 7200 and to a par of 71.

I understand and saw the posting of the final product, but from what people can get from the routing and my little hole descriptions, what do you all think?  Critique away, if you'd be willing to grant me the benefit of your comments...
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 11:18:01 AM by Justin_Zook »
We make a living by what we get...we make a life by what we give.

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Routing Exercise for Wanna-be Architects
« Reply #84 on: September 13, 2008, 11:50:15 AM »
I like this configuration of any of the routings I've seen.   It uses the water features perfectly, with a good variety. I definitely didn't like the final routing plan.  There were too many contrived dogleg holes, and I hated the added water hazard.  You don't to add water for drainage on a flat site (see the Rawls Course at Texas Tech).
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Justin_Zook

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Routing Exercise for Wanna-be Architects
« Reply #85 on: September 13, 2008, 11:42:06 PM »
Thanks, I agree about the final routing plan.  It's like flank steak when you really wanted filet. 

I really did not like the framing bunkers on #9 on the outside of the fairway.  They did nothing for the hole except add expense to it.  I love the bunker on the inside corner though. 
We make a living by what we get...we make a life by what we give.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Routing Exercise for Wanna-be Architects -- and the winner is .........
« Reply #86 on: September 15, 2008, 05:35:55 PM »
...
And, I guess Garland, this will not be the course for you.   ;)
...

You got that right bro! Don't expect me to play there anytime .............................................
ever. It looks as though Canadians have Florida envy. ;)
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Routing Exercise for Wanna-be Architects
« Reply #87 on: September 15, 2008, 06:57:53 PM »
Why would I not just hit my drive on #4 down #3 fairway, and approach the #4 green from there without bringing the stream into play?

Unbelievable! Every pond is on the right! Don't these people believe in balance? Don't they believe in fun? Even as a slicing lefty, I wouldn't play there.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Justin_Zook

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Routing Exercise for Wanna-be Architects
« Reply #88 on: September 15, 2008, 07:38:20 PM »
Maybe golf really is a long walk spoiled...

...like the walk between 13 and 14, and for that matter, between 5 and 6, 7 and 8, 9 and 10, 15 and 16, 16 and 17, and finally 17 and 18.  Maybe this course requires the use of a cart, who knows.





We make a living by what we get...we make a life by what we give.

Chris_Baynham

Re: A Routing Exercise for Wanna-be Architects
« Reply #89 on: September 17, 2008, 03:43:50 PM »
Wow, you guys are certainly spending alot of time on this.....

The reason I put up the final routing was to generate a discussion without people knowing it was the final design.

Eventhough I wasnt directly involved with the site, the lead engineer - TJ Rule informed me that there were a great deal of restrictions on the site, including:

- minimum 30m environmental buffers from each existing water feature (large pond and two creeks)
- requirement for a road to the existing maintenance facility (the existing road almost ran the entire length of this site, as you can see)
- the water table on the site is very high, so to generate fill for features (without having to import material), some ponds were ultimately required
- the conservation authority did not allow any clearing of the trees on the west side of the site, which is an ESA, hence the longer walk from 13 to 14
- some treed areas on the east side of the site had the same restrictions
- no need for a driving range, as there is a separate range at the existing course

These are just some of the restrictions that the architect faced, as I said, I wasn't directly involved, but heard the owner is quite happy with the (almost) final product.


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