Tom Fazio's Best Golf Course Design.

[Matt_Ward]

A.G. Crockett:

Have you played Glenwild ?

If so - please knock yourself out with a bit more detail beyond the brief support statement you made. I'd love to hear your specific thoughts on how you came to your conclusion. Also, if you have played Glenwild where would you place it among the other TF top tier layouts you have personally played?

Let me point out -- in the event you may not realize this -- I do agree walking layouts is a bit more than simply throwing from the seat of one's pants opinions gleaned only from photogaphs. 

Instead of the sarcastic bent -- how is it too much to ask that people at least play the course in question before making statements on whether or not it merits the attention it clearly should be getting in my mind? In addition, those fortunate people who can play any course multiple times will likely be able to opine on just how varied the challenges can be at different times with different wind patterns to different hole locations.

I salute Kalen for admitting he has never played a TF course -- but such honesty doesn't then mean one automatically gets a free pass on saying the course doesn't have anything that's "mind blowing."

Details matter.

Playing provides the ultimate way to see if the design elements in observation from walking actually really intersect when the game is finally played.

One final point -- one's total database doesn't enter into the equation when solely looking at one course alone. If one were to lump courses together then clearly such a database provides a framework to sort through their respective strengths and weaknesses.

Andy:

Observation of others does help ... however ... you are limited to what you see. Getting the chance to see for oneself through actual play allows you to take the mental image from observation alone and then hook it up to the execution side. I've played my share of courses where the walking tour really did little justice (both positive and negative) until the clubs were in hand.

[Jay Flemma]

A.G.:  No, I was not sure whether Mike Strantz was involved with World Woods.  Looks like he wasn't, or at least he didn't think he contributed significantly enough to mention it, on his own web site.  I actually hadn't thought of looking to see if his web site was still out there.  It's kind of spooky, actually.

Just for clarification:  Mike was NOT involved with World Woods in any way, and never set foot on the property.  he told me that when I interviewed him back in late 2003.  Heidi later confirmed he never saw it after that either.

TD, you are right in that Mike less resembles TF than many of the others in the TF bloodline.  Mike told me he tried to copy Dye and then CB/Raynor, Tille, and then things he liiked from Pine valley and merion, as well as all the courses he visited in the UK.

[Derek_Duncan]

Interesting that both John Conley and Lou Duran mentioned Camp Creek in the FL Panhandle.  A nice course - but an underperformance given the fantastic sand based site with decent elevation changes a stone's throw from the beach.  A "5.5" golf course on an "8" site.  Odd routing with a 150 yards hike from the 9th green to 10th tee and four isolated holes on the back creating two 150 yards hikes.  

Bogey

Michael,

Those undulations you cite at Camp Creek were created. The site was pretty flat and littered with scrub pine, closer to a 1 than an 8. Fazio had a pretty big budget that allowed him to craft what you see now. As far as the disjointed routing for 12-15, I can't say for certain but I believe there were some environmental issue that forced the holes out that way.

For what it's worth, I'd put Camp Creek right near the top of what I've seen from Fazio.

[Jay Flemma]

I thought camp creek was a Max Creek weekend concert:)

[Link Walsh]

If you want to read something funny, go to the link below, and read the Finley head pro's description of the 10th, with an anecdote about Joe Inman (whose brother John is the golf coach at UNC).  The head pro is a great guy and very, very positive, and puts the best spin possible on everything.  But you can read between the lines here and get an idea of how he really feels.   I think it is much worse than he says, because if you carry the second shot to the middle of the green, it tends to go off the back into heavy rough.

Again, the irony of the situation is that the original hole was a cool, quirky short par 4, and the green is basically in the same place!

http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/finley/stats/050600aaj.html

[/quote]

That description was hilarious.  I think I might forward it to my friend that lives up there so he can have a little laugh.  You're right, I forgot about the severe drop-off over the green (I've been there...)

When the pro says that the right way to play the hole is two 5 woods in a row, you know it has issues. 

[Link Walsh]

Okay, I'm still having trouble quoting parts of previous threads.  Can anybody help a "newbie" out to tell me how to get the quotes to appear in bold like everyone else?

[Jason McNamara]

Just click on "quote" instead of "reply," and the necessary (quote) tag will automatically be applied.

[Link Walsh]

Thanks.  I'll give it a try next time. 

[Joel_Stewart]

So the results are in.  The completely unofficial treehouse subjective poll shows the following Tom Fazio best courses:

IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER -  (I have taken the liberty to attempt to place these in categories since his body of work is so large!)

Mountain Courses:
Gozzer Ranch
Wade Hampton
Martis Camp
Mountain Top
Eagle Point
Glenwild

Desert Courses:
Shadow Creek
Estancia
Madison Club
Mirabel

Ocean Front:
Seaside @ Sea Island
Kuki'o

Waterfront/Waterview:
John's Island
Galloway
The Alotian
Hudson National

Low Country:
Berkeley Hall

Other:
The Farm
Spring Hill
Sand Ridge
Victoria National
Old North State
Briggs Ranch
Forrest Creek
Dallas National
Karsten Creek
Alderra

WORST COURSES:
White Columns
Camp Creek
Turning Stone
Finley
Primm Valley

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

Be interested in two (2) things --

1). How many TF courses have you played ?

2). What would be your personal top ten ?

Last item -- you missed listing the likes of Dallas National & Karsten Creek. Both would be on top dozen TF list.
Can't leave off his work at Pronghorn either.

All were mentioned within this discussion.

[Patrick Schultheis]

Don't forget Aldarra.  I haven't played Shadow Creek or Alotian, but Aldarra is my fave of the >10 Fazios I've played

[Matt_Ward]

Patrick:

To give some meaningful context what are the names of the other TF courses you have played ?

[Carl Nichols]

I wouldn't call Seaside oceanfront -- I think it has holes along St. Simons Sound, not the Atlantic.

[Joel_Stewart]

Joel:

1). How many TF courses have you played ?

2). What would be your personal top ten ?

I've played around 15.

My favorites are,

Martis Camp
Shadow Creek
Wade Hampton

A distant 4th is,
Estancia

I haven't played any of the others mentioned on the list above except the two courses at Primm which are my least favorites.

[Matt_Ward]

Joel:

Of the top three you mentioned -- would they all be rated among the top 25 courses you have EVER played?

Or would they fall lower?

I'm simply guessing -- but your comments on Martis Camp seem to have it among the very top tier of layouts you have ever played. Is that fair to say?

Thanks ...

[Joel_Stewart]

Matt:

Martis Camp is not in my top 25, but it is in my top 100.  It is the best Fazio I have played but then I haven't played many of his top courses as listed.  I liked Martis Camp better then Wade Hampton and Shadow Creek.  I also believe Martis Camp could be a top 100 course, but then I listed earlier the factors that may hurt it,

1. Its not on the east coast
2. Lake Tahoe has a limited season
3. Its going to be ultra private
4. It is a housing project
5. Its a really tough walk

As a result, who knows.  If a course like Friars Head and Ballyneal can't make the top 100 then nothing is automatic. 

[A.G._Crockett]

To be fair, Finley is not "bad" and doesn't belong on any list labeled "worst".  Like White Columns (and I would put the Capital City Crabapple course in this category as well) Finley is uninspiring and forgettable, and smacks of missed opportunity.  But bad?  It is a perfectly fine place to play golf, in the same way that a shopping mall is a perfectly fine way to buy stuff.  But as a great example of architecture and art, shopping malls often fall short.  "Mediocre" might be a better label for that list.

I've used the analogy of rice cakes for these courses.  Look like food, you eat'em like food, and so on.  But they aren't very filling or nourishing, and nobody sits there hungry and wishing they had one.

[Brian Potash]

Joel,

while Hudson National does have some nice views of the Hudson River, it is definitely more of a mountain course than Waterfront/Waterview.

Many elevation changes with some of the tees literally cut out of the side of a mountain.

Anyway, glad you mentioned it as it is my home course and doesn't often get mentioned that favorably on GCA.

Brian

[Chris Cupit]

My Fazio experience is very limited--GA only ranked for my preferences:
1.  The Farm
T-2.  White Columns, St. Ives and The Frog

Not a big sample size I know but I can't say I'd go out of my way to find a TF course based on these experiances.
 

[Patrick Schultheis]

Matt Ward -

Fair request.  Travelling, so list not complete, but top of head is

Aldarra
Pinehurst #4
Shady Canyon
Wild Dunes
Fazio @ Barefoot
Grayhawk
Pelican Hill
a few in the desert

I hope to get to Gozzer this autumn before the snow hits, but have only seen it without playing so far.  Same with Pronghorn

[Mark Saltzman]

OK, it's been a decade since the meat of the discussion in this thread and three years since the last post [the whole thread is very interesting for those that have the patience/time to read through the whole thing].  

Fazio has several new-ish designs scattered across the top-100 lists.  There was almost no discussion of Gozzer, Mountaintop or Shooting Star in this thread (all GW top-25 Modern) or Alotian (GD top-20).  Lots of talk about Glenwild c/o Matt Ward, but little substantive discussion as it seems he was the only person that had played it.

So, what's the best Fazio design?

My top-10:

1) Victoria National
2) Shooting Star
3) Johns Island West
4) Coppinwood
5) The National GC of Canada
6) Shadow Creek
7) Gozzer Ranch
8 ) Mountaintop
9 ) Glenwild
10) Black Diamond

Just missing the list: Aldarra, World Woods (Pine Barrens), Fallen Oak

For reference, I have played 37 of T. Fazio's courses (list can be found here: http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.com/2011/12/courses-played-by-architect.html).

[Anthony_Nysse]

Just missing the list: Aldarra, World Woods (Pine Barrens), Fallen Oak, Trump WPB

For reference, I have played 37 of T. Fazio's courses (list can be found here: http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.com/2011/12/courses-played-by-architect.html).

Jim Fazio did Trump WPB

[Andy Troeger]

I go back and forth on Fazio's best. I have Victoria National, Gozzer Ranch, and The Alotian all pretty close. My latest iteration is that Victoria National is the one I would most quickly go back to, in part because the core golf bits are the best of the three. The other two are in gorgeous settings, but would lend themselves to carts. Victoria National has a very distinct set of 18 golf holes and great variety between the tough finishing stretch and a number of holes from #1-13 that give the golfer a bit of a chance to score before holding on at the end. #14, 15, 16 is an awesome three hole stretch.

So my top five:
1. VN
2. Gozzer
3. Alotian
4. Shooting Star
5. Dallas National

I've played Glenwild since the last posts on the thread. Its good, close to the best in Utah (I have it #2 between Dye Promontory but its close either way). Not especially close to being as good as Victoria National, however. I'll be in better position to say as after this fall as I'm planning to go see Wade, Mountaintop, and Diamond Creek. Still missing Shadow Creek too.

[Brad Isaacs]

You may not like TF but has he done a bad design? No.
  Prim suffers mostly from maintenance issues. Glenwild has a couple of greens where slope and speed don't sync, but still a great course. (I like it better than Martis Camp) Shooting Star superb and one of top 5 Fazio. Galloway great collection of holes,but the routing issue, and bugs.

I need to pay VN, and Alotian before I could give top 5 but Shadow Creek probably won't be in my top 5 Fazios

[Chris Munoz]

You guys should come down to the DR, Puntacana and check out Tom Fazio's-Corales.  Great golf course with a lot of movement and 7 holes right on the caribbean sea.  Inland holes just as good as the ocean holes.  wide fairways and deep bunkers.   Tom Marzolf and Steve Masiak were the senior associates on the project.  check out links magazine for a recent article about the 18th hole.  Links Mag. did a nice write up and a sketch from Fazio Design.

Check it out.