[A.G._Crockett]

Finley saddens me. While a student at UNC-Chapel Hill back in the late 70's, I loved that quirky old course. I believe that it was a Flynn design, but I'm not 100% positive. Now it's just a characterless slugfest to large, mostly flat boring greens. Maybe fine for competitive college golfers, but nowhere near as enjoyable an experience to play as the old course.

David Madison,
Perfectly said regarding Finley.  I actually trace my interest in GCA to playing Finley for the first time after Mr. Fazio spent $8m to redo the course.  I graduated from Carolina in '74, had played many, many rounds on the old course, and played the new Finley about a month after it opened; I have never been so disappointed in my life, and have been trying to figure out why ever since.  I've warmed to the course a bit since then, but all in all it just isn't that good.

I am not a Fazio fan in any way, shape, or form.  I've played 10 or so of his courses, and more often than not "missed opportunity" is what I come away thinking.

That said, The Farm is a great golf course.  I got to play it for the first time recently, and it is by far the best Fazio work I've seen, and one of the very best golf courses that I have ever played.  It is a great property, and Mr. Fazio got everything right on that golf course.  Just a great, great place to play.

[Kenny Baer]

Kenny -

I found The Alotian to be a different Fazio. He had some risk/reward stuff, good angles, I really enjoyed it. As for walkability, it is very hilly. How is Augusta to walk?

From the pictures Kuki'o looks more appealing to me; that is a course that I could not put a finger on right away.

I would say Augusta is a tough but fair walk; tees and greens are close and although it is very hilly it is by no means mountainous; if ANGC never had a tournament I would bet 30-50% of a hard core golfing membership would walk regularly as to where The Alotian or Sage Valley or Martis Camp look like the only people walking are the true die hards or trying to prove a point....but what do I know...I am judging by photographs so i think that says it all.

Jim....Have you played Seaside at Sea Island?  What do you think about it?  It is probably the only course I have played that I would reccommend it to anyone on GCA and feel confident that they would be impressed; I am just wondering.

[David_Madison]

A.G. Crockett -  What could there possibly be to warm up to at Finley now? There's one interesting green that requires the tiniest bit of strategy (#17) but beyond that? I really miss quirky holes like the old #3, #9, and some of the other short par-4's scattered throughout the course. I can't help but believe that the old Finley would hold up just fine against the new distance standards, as distance had nothing to do with successfully playing the course.

Berkeley Hall in Blufton, SC is another example of Fazio's creating his own perfect little world. Once you get past the first three or four holes with a few homes to the left, you are thrust into an environment where you can't help but forget you are in low country.

[cary lichtenstein]

I'd have to say that Fazio is way underrated on this Site. His work is consistently excellent, more predictible than Doaks but not as artsy, but more expensive to construct and maintain.

[Tom_Doak]

A.G.:  I am pretty sure that Tom Fazio's main guy at The Farm was Dana Fry, just before he went to work for Mike Hurdzan.  Dana liked to build things pretty severe and difficult, so he did not fit in with Fazio's philosophy ... same with Mike Strantz.

[Kalen Braley]

Has anyone besides Matt Ward played Glenwild? Thoughts?

Sean,

I've toured it up close, but didn't play it.  Looked to be some pretty good holes out there, but didn't appear to be anything mind-blowing in nature.

That being said, its the only Fazio I've seen up close and have yet to play one of his courses...

[A.G._Crockett]

A.G. Crockett -  What could there possibly be to warm up to at Finley now? There's one interesting green that requires the tiniest bit of strategy (#17) but beyond that? I really miss quirky holes like the old #3, #9, and some of the other short par-4's scattered throughout the course. I can't help but believe that the old Finley would hold up just fine against the new distance standards, as distance had nothing to do with successfully playing the course.

Berkeley Hall in Blufton, SC is another example of Fazio's creating his own perfect little world. Once you get past the first three or four holes with a few homes to the left, you are thrust into an environment where you can't help but forget you are in low country.

David
I've warmed to Finley in the sense that I no longer hate it.  But I will go to my grave thinking that the old Finley updated (new grasses, adequate drainage, new greens, but with the same routing) would have been a better golf course.  I still miss it, and can picture every inch of the place.

I'll put it this way; if I had played the new Finley somewhere else, with Carolina not involved, it would not be my least favorite Fazio course.  I wouldn't seek it out for a replay, but I wouldn't feel especially negative toward it.  It is a pleasant day of golf, and nothing more.

 

[A.G._Crockett]

A.G.:  I am pretty sure that Tom Fazio's main guy at The Farm was Dana Fry, just before he went to work for Mike Hurdzan.  Dana liked to build things pretty severe and difficult, so he did not fit in with Fazio's philosophy ... same with Mike Strantz.

That's interesting, because the most striking thing about The Farm compared to other Fazio courses that I have played was just how difficult it was.  That is not my usual impression of his courses, to say the least.  I played pretty well coming in, but just absolutely got my butt kicked on the front nine.

I'd also rate the two par three's on the back as among the most beautiful that I have ever seen; that they are together on the same course is special.

[Link Walsh]

I've played Finley about 4 or 5 times.  Yes, the bulk of the front side can be pretty boring.  But the back side has some good, tough, interesting golf holes, don't you think?  I'd say 11, 12, and 17 are the best holes out there, but I'll even take something like 16 just because it's just different (dramatically uphill 2nd shot on long par 4). 

Also, has anyone played The Frog out west of Atlanta?  I like the variety on the par 4s out there, and you actually have some options on all of the par 5s.     

[David_Madison]

Tom Doak:

Was Mike Strantz involved at Wade Hampton? Looking at some of the bunkering and shaping, for example the clawed out scrapes on the first hole over on the left side, I'd guess that was the case. While mild for what Strantz has done on his own, it seems pretty severe for what I've seen from Fazio from that era.

[A.G._Crockett]

I've played Finley about 4 or 5 times.  Yes, the bulk of the front side can be pretty boring.  But the back side has some good, tough, interesting golf holes, don't you think?  I'd say 11, 12, and 17 are the best holes out there, but I'll even take something like 16 just because it's just different (dramatically uphill 2nd shot on long par 4). 

Also, has anyone played The Frog out west of Atlanta?  I like the variety on the par 4s out there, and you actually have some options on all of the par 5s.     

11 is fine, nothing special, with a green that is maybe a bit too small for the shot that you are asked to hit. 12 is a very good par 3.  17 is interesting and quirky, though not very demanding unless you end up on the wrong level on the green somehow.  16, like 11, is perfectly o.k.  The fact that 16 and 11 are memorable speaks more to the overall quality of the course, IMO.  I'd rate 15 as the best hole out there, BTW.

A good contrast from the old Finley to the new is #10.  It almost follows the routing of old #7, which was a great short par 4.  The current hole is just wretched, with a goofy tee shot followed by an equally long second shot.  I just hate the hole, and I think most people that play Finley feel the same.

I like the Frog.  I've only played it once, but it is second to The Farm on my personal list of Fazio courses.

[Link Walsh]

You're right.  #10 is an absolutely terrible hole!  My friend in Durham plays the hole from one tee box up exactly for the reason you said- the tee shot is just terrible. 

Again, I don't have the frame of reference that you have with having played the old course as well, so I'll have to go by what you say there.  Standing on the tee on #12 with a long iron sure makes you pucker up a little bit, doesn't it? 

[Tom_Doak]

David M:

I do not know any of the details on Wade Hampton.

The only courses I know for sure that Mike Strantz worked on for Fazio were Wild Dunes (when it was reconstructed) and World Woods.  I believe he also worked at Wachesaw Plantation in Myrtle Beach, but I'm not sure of that one.  He obviously worked on a bunch of others, I just never talked to him long enough to get a full list.

[Jim Franklin]

Strantz was involved at Wade Hampton.

Kenny -

I have played Seaside and like it very much. I don't know if I would call that pure Fazio as there was something there before. It is a very enjoyable course with some very strong holes. I have played it about 10 times over the past few years and enjoyed every round. With that said, it still doesn't crack my top 10 Fazios.

[David Druzisky]

Tom D.

Nothing implied either in my post.  Just a quick response to your simple comment.  I just don't put much value on the budget thing, thats all.  I have done courses from 30 million on down to 1.7 million and I think it has much more to do with the project and client than the architect.  While some have their comfort zones most of us simply meet the expectations of the owner or meet what the project and site dictate.  Sometimes you need to spend a little more so the course can be managed more effectively or better exist in a difficult environment.  Apache Stronghold might be a good example where a little more spent would have really helped. (not saying any of that is/was your call BTW)

In fact I think you and Tom have some similarity in your formulas.
1. You both start with the big picture in mind and the goal of creating a great customer experience.  (slightly different customers)
2.  You both create very well (different was to go about that)
3. You both work on some very nice properties/sites. (maybe location vs. attributes)
4. You both put great value on you team.
5. Each of you work with clients that have high expectations and visions that they want you to help them realize.
All great stuff and I am sure there are more if I had time to continue.

No doubt the difference is in how you each go about those.  Each rather well.

How do you think Mr Fazio would do if given an opportunity at say Bandon?

[A.G._Crockett]

David M:

I do not know any of the details on Wade Hampton.

The only courses I know for sure that Mike Strantz worked on for Fazio were Wild Dunes (when it was reconstructed) and World Woods.  I believe he also worked at Wachesaw Plantation in Myrtle Beach, but I'm not sure of that one.  He obviously worked on a bunch of others, I just never talked to him long enough to get a full list.

Tom,
Are you certain about World Woods as to Strantz involvement?  I had heard that before, and then heard that is was NOT the case.  Wish I could remember who/where, but it seemed very credible and definitive at the time.  I'd love to know once and for all.

[A.G._Crockett]

You're right.  #10 is an absolutely terrible hole!  My friend in Durham plays the hole from one tee box up exactly for the reason you said- the tee shot is just terrible. 

Again, I don't have the frame of reference that you have with having played the old course as well, so I'll have to go by what you say there.  Standing on the tee on #12 with a long iron sure makes you pucker up a little bit, doesn't it? 

If you want to read something funny, go to the link below, and read the Finley head pro's description of the 10th, with an anecdote about Joe Inman (whose brother John is the golf coach at UNC).  The head pro is a great guy and very, very positive, and puts the best spin possible on everything.  But you can read between the lines here and get an idea of how he really feels.   I think it is much worse than he says, because if you carry the second shot to the middle of the green, it tends to go off the back into heavy rough.

Again, the irony of the situation is that the original hole was a cool, quirky short par 4, and the green is basically in the same place!

http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/finley/stats/050600aaj.html

[Greg Holland]

David M:

I do not know any of the details on Wade Hampton.

The only courses I know for sure that Mike Strantz worked on for Fazio were Wild Dunes (when it was reconstructed) and World Woods.  I believe he also worked at Wachesaw Plantation in Myrtle Beach, but I'm not sure of that one.  He obviously worked on a bunch of others, I just never talked to him long enough to get a full list.

Tom,

Are you certain about World Woods as to Strantz involvement?  I had heard that before, and then heard that is was NOT the case.  Wish I could remember who/where, but it seemed very credible and definitive at the time.  I'd love to know once and for all.

From mikestrantzdesign.com, "In Hilton Head, Mike's career with Tom Fazio began at Moss Creek Plantation. He later served as an on-site designer and shaper for Fazio's Links and Harbor courses at Wild Dunes near Charleston, and served that same function at eleven additional Fazio courses--including Lake Nona, Wade Hampton Club, Kiawah Island's Osprey Point and Florida's Black Diamond Ranch--over the next eight years."

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

Hold the phone amigo -- "touring" a course is not the same as actually playing it.

The problem with spin is that it often snowballs in a certain direction.

You frankly admit you've yet to play a TF course.

Before throwing an opinion in from the cheap seats -- a bit more personal homework is needed don't you think?

The "mind blowing" stuff you say is missing is there -- what's mind blowing is your personal tour missed it. Try the course from the player's standpoint when hitting actual shots and you will see what you missed just from the eyeball assessment.

Glenwild more than merits it's top dog status in UT. Ditto for it to be rated among the best modern courses given what other TF courses are already listed now in my mind.

[Kalen Braley]

MAtt,

I gave me opinion, and I qualified it, so I don't think I was being misleading in any way.

That being said, very few courses I've played had "mind-blowing" stuff so I wasn't trying to pick on GlenWild.  For that matter I've yet to play any courses in Utah with mind-blowing stuff.....I reserve that distinction for courses like PacDunes, CPC, etc.

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

The issue is not that it's misleading -- it's just empty of any real detail in terms of meaningfulness.

Plenty of people walk courses and fail to see what happens when the rubber meets the road when actual shots are
called upon. I said no less when Doak himself opined on courses in CG simply from walking them -- plenty of things can be
missed -- and often are. The theory of design must have a ground floor where the actual nature of the shots required and how those shots are rewarded / penalzied are then evaluated. Walking courses doesn't do that -- it's no less than people weighing in when photos are posted. You can only opine from the highest of surface levels.

TF spent plenty of effort to create a layout -- in Utah -- that sets the bar far above what's there now. Glenwild is extremely challenging but it leaps beyond the simple eye-candy razz-ma-tazz that often thrown at TF.

The range of shots, the beauty of the property and the sheer control / power needed in a number of instances clearly rates more attention that it's gotten to date.

Kalen given your profound love for UT golf -- I look forward to when you play the course and weigh in with something more than just the walking tour variety. Thanks ...

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
I think there's a huge difference between viewing a course on site and viewing photos.. Personally I agree that playing is significantly better as you mentioned, but one can see quite a bit from being there, especially if they get to watch others play the course (not sure if Kalen did that).

[A.G._Crockett]

MAtt,

I gave me opinion, and I qualified it, so I don't think I was being misleading in any way.

That being said, very few courses I've played had "mind-blowing" stuff so I wasn't trying to pick on GlenWild.  For that matter I've yet to play any courses in Utah with mind-blowing stuff.....I reserve that distinction for courses like PacDunes, CPC, etc.

Kalen,
Don't bother.  If you've seen pictures, you should have walked it.  If you've walked it, you should have played it.  If you play it instead of walking it, you won't have played it enough.  If you play it a lot, you won't have played enough other courses, and so on.  Bottom line is, you're doomed to be wrong in this particular argument because you WILL have a flawed data base.  You lose no matter what, even if you are right.  Which I happen to think you are...

[Tom_Doak]

A.G.:  No, I was not sure whether Mike Strantz was involved with World Woods.  Looks like he wasn't, or at least he didn't think he contributed significantly enough to mention it, on his own web site.  I actually hadn't thought of looking to see if his web site was still out there.  It's kind of spooky, actually.

[Adam Clayman]

I believe it was Jay Flemma who asked Mike Strantz directly if he was involved at World Woods, and he said no. Maybe a search of Jay's site will yield the confirmation?

Black Diamond Ranch is an odd one. To see it on some recent list and now with relation to Mike Strantz. Coincidence?

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