[PThomas]

I played Olympic in 1998 the Thursday before the Open (7 days before the opening round) and didn't make a par until #8.  I lost 3 or 4 balls within the first 7 holes by just hitting it a few feet off the fairway.  My handicap at the time was around a 3.  

wow!  that really puts it in perspective for me...thanks for sharing it Joel

[Mike_Cirba]

Can we get The Emperor, Gib Papazian, and Patrick Mucci in the foursome, with Rees as the roving reporter walking with the foursome?

Now, THAT's ENTERTAINMENT!  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Next June a foursome consisting of 3 celebrities and an unknown will play a televised round at Torrey Pines in the US Open setup.  The genesis of the show was Tiger's statement that a 10-handicapper wouldn't break 100 at Oakmont as it was set up for the Open.  Some writer in LA picked up on the comment, and pitched the idea for the show to the USGA via Golf Digest.  David Fay thinks it will be educational and fun.

Celebrities are yet to be identified.  

I'd take the Oakmont bet based on the condition of the golf course this past June.

If you added the galleries the number might climb.

It's an intimidating combination.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

I shot a 45 on the back 9 at Oakmont and I'm an 18 handicap when  Not to mention the greens were rolling faster than they were during the open. I think Tiger would loose that bet.

Did you play the back tees and was the rough 6"-8" ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

A 10-18 handicapper can have the best caddy in the world at Oakmont and it's not going to help that much.

Having a great caddy reading putts correctly implies that the golfer can put the ball on the intended line at the intended pace, which 10-18 handicappers can rarely do, especially at Oakmont.

The golfer still has to execute properly, and at stimps of 13 on those sloped greens, that may be well beyond the ability of that golfer.

In addition, at Oakmont, you can't get above 4 and 8 O'clock.
Some say 5 and 7.
Few 10-18 handicappers have the ability to get to that narrow perameter with approach and recoveries, let alone putts, especially from that rough which was brutal.

The fairway and greenside bunkers are DEEP, with the fairway bunkers having HIGH fronting banks.

The question is:  How do you duplicate the pressure associated with playing in an OPEN.

After all, anyone can go out for a casual round with practically nothing on the line and be relaxed, with no pressure because nothing's really at stake.

The answer:  Have a good sized gallery, and more importantly, have a LARGE wager on the outcome.

Shoot under 100 and you win $ 50,000
Shoot 100 or more and you lose $ 50,000.

Now let's see who steps up to the plate.

It's a little like betting that you can't walk 50 feet on a 4 X 4, and then taking that 4 X 4 and hoisting it 1,000 feet up.

On the ground that 4 X 4 walk would be duck soup.
At 1,000 feet, with a little breeze and a long way down, it's an entirely different matter.

But, it's the same bet, just a little walk of 50 feet on a 4 X 4.

The only thing that's changed is the consequence of failure.

When you add that to the equation, it gets to the heart of what's at stake, and it ain't casual anymore.

P.S.  Walking would be required as would conformance with all 2007 USGA rules.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Wouldn't a camera crew and a gallery be enough to send most amateurs into apoplexy?

It might not be the same pressure as competing for the national open championship, but it would be enough for most.

The question becomes; how many of us would relish the chance to try?  

[Jim Nugent]

Dan:

I agree with your analysis.  If the 10-handicapper can hit it halfway straight and has a good caddie reading his putts, he might be able to get around in less than 100.  I'm a 10-handicap and I'm pretty sure I could do it, though perhaps less than 50% of the time.

Then again, if the rough is like Winged Foot in '74 or 2006, he might miss 4 fairways with the 6-iron off the tee and make a double-digit score on two of those holes, which would severely impair the odds of breaking 100.

If they just hit driver off every tee, I'm thinking the same as Jeff W. -- 110 or 115.

I don't agree with Dan's analysis.  As you said, the 10 handicapper is going to miss some fairways with his 6-iron off the tee.  Maybe a lot of fairways, if they are cut down to 20 or 25 yards.  

Then he faces the same problem with his 2nd, 3rd and 4th shots.  i.e. even when he's hitting from the fairway, some of those shots will end up in the rough, or the canyons, or bunkers.  Changes are pretty good he ends up in the rough on most holes.  

So IMO the 10-handicapper is unlikely to hit more than a few greens in bogey regulation.  To do so requires 3 or 4 nearly perfect 6-iron shots in a row.  

And some holes at Torrey require a lot more than 6 iron off the tee.  The par 5 on the back (14?) is one.  The par 3 (16?) may be another.  

I definitely like Tiger's side of the bet.  

 

[Mark Pearce]

Interesting how different this thread would be if we were talking about some British Open venues. I played Hoylake a couple of days after the Open finished in 2006 off the green teess (about 200 yards shorter than the Open tees) and shot 90.  The member I was playing with (off 15) was a little better.  My score was helped by a spell from 10 where I was 1 over for 6 holes but I started badly (double, treble, double) and finished badly (double, treble).  That's 12 of the eighteen shots I dropped in those five holes.

Of course, Hoylake 2006 was relatively easy for the mid-capper as the rough was forgiving.  

[jeffwarne]

In the Club Championship on the first tee,,,,,

I consistently see toe shanks,tops and bad mishits by 18's.
Hooks slices and mishits by 10's.
and that's just simple first tee jitters with the pro watching,
on their home couse from comfortable tees and match play.

7600 yard  US Open rough, little wind, gallery, no sleep, cameras......18 doesn't break 125-possibly 150.
10 doesn't break 100-110
Once in the rough, they lack the strength, ability and savviness to get out.
Once they fear the rough, they start to steer and end up....in the rough.

Remember also that I'm making the assumption that 50-75% of the players nationwide have unrealistic  handicaps due to practicality, ESC, pace of play, or mostly ego.
VERY FEW are equipped for the realities of stroke play and have already cheated themselves by not knowing the rules on OB,lost balls, etc. when froming their handicap-----all of which would be in play in this event.
And then there's the give up factor once they know they won't make it.

[Phil_the_Author]

W.H., you asked, "Wouldn't a camera crew and a gallery be enough to send most amateurs into apoplexy?"

That is what is fascinating about the Maltbie group at bethpage in 2002. It was filmed by the NBC crews with cameras on every hole. This allowed them a 'learning curve' for the Open coverage in another three weeks.

The Bethpage regulars playing were all very aware of the cameras and within just a few holes were playing to their handicaps with one of them actually doing better.

Of course all three had hundreds of rounds under their belts on the Black.

[Kirk Gill]

...someone would have to pay me to play Torrey...no interest in that dog track

Harsh. I had an enjoyable round there, and while I might not put it up towards the top of the courses I've played, I did in fact pay to play there, and might again. What is it about this course that elicits such.......hatred?

[tlavin]

The presence of the cameras, the knowledge that the show is going to be heavily promoted and the fact of the event's proximity to the Open will make these players puke like toddlers with influenza.  They ought to hand out bibs on the first tee to protect their sponsor-purchased golf shirts.

Played from Open tees, with Open rough (even 4 inches will kill 'em) and, most significantly, with Open hole locations on greens that are more like browns, they won't scare 100.

[John Kavanaugh]

...someone would have to pay me to play Torrey...no interest in that dog track

Harsh. I had an enjoyable round there, and while I might not put it up towards the top of the courses I've played, I did in fact pay to play there, and might again. What is it about this course that elicits such.......hatred?

The hatred of Torrey Pines is something that is taught very early to the GCA poster.  I remember when I first joined the site I posted that I was going to be in town and had set up a tee time for four asking if anyone wanted to join.  Turns out no one did because they preferred to drink wine and postulate rather than play.  Such GCA nobility as Gib, Tommy and Tiger can tell you and anyone who will listen how bad the renovation is without having ever played the course.  It is the very same people who can tell you how great Bandon IV will be without ever having played there.  It is the single most important example of ignoranant bias in this wheel barrel of crap called architectural study.

The current configuration of Torrey Pines is the single most criticized venue by people who have not played the course in the history of this site.  I would love to know if Michael has played the course.

Please, anyone, tell me five public courses west of the Mississippi more suited for a US Open.  The list is Pebble and out.

Note:  I trust and respect the people who run the USGA and believe that the US Open is a fair way to see who is the best golfer to represent this country for any given year.

[Jeff Spittel]

I played Bethpage Black with a buddy about two weeks after the Open in '02 from the regular tees. We were both playing to 8s, and both hit the ball pretty long. Seeing the course for the first time in person, I shot 98 and he shot 95 playing completely out of our heads.

The rough was still brutal and the greens were quick, but you could see the pins were set in very hacker friendly locations. If you put us on the back tees with tough pins, I would have been pleased with 110. Not sure how many strokes you can add for sleeping in the car.    

[Phil Benedict]

What will cause the average golfer the most trouble on a US Open setup?  The length of the course?  The rough?  The firmness and pace of the greens?

For my part I'm inclined to say the rough.  I was at Oakmont during the second round this year and the rough looked impossible to me.  Average golfers would hit a lot of shots from rough-to-rough, leading to big numbers.  

[Ted Kramer]

No chance a legit 10 handi breaks 100 from US Open Tees on a US Open course set up for the big event. No chance.

-Ted

[John Kavanaugh]

What will cause the average golfer the most trouble on a US Open setup?  The length of the course?  The rough?  The firmness and pace of the greens?

For my part I'm inclined to say the rough.  I was at Oakmont during the second round this year and the rough looked impossible to me.  Average golfers would hit a lot of shots from rough-to-rough, leading to big numbers.  

If you look at Torrey specifically you need to consider the Kikuyu rough.  I thought it was the toughest rough I had ever played at regular height.  I do wonder given the make up of the grass if it won't get easier at absurd heights.

note:  No ten handicap can get three seven irons on the green on the 12th.  At 505 yds uphill into the wind it is a double bogey hole if played very well.  I remember finishing the hole and standing on the tee of the 13th being surprised that there were two par 5's in a row.  I had to ask a playing partner if we just played a par four where I had hit driver, seven wood, seven iron to make a solid 5.

[Mike Hendren]

It continues to amaze me that this erudite crowd cannot fathom how good top-flite professionals are.  A 10 capper has zero chance to break 100 from 7500 yards with narrow fairways, thick rough, slick greens and tough pins.  Zero.  Notta.  Zilch.  Bubcus.  

Not even Robert Halmi could do it.  

Mike

[Mike Golden]

I played Pebble Beach 3 days after the 2000 Open so am basing this on my experiences there as well as a round at Pinehurst #2 about 3 weeks before the Open in 1999.

The rough at Pebble had been cut about 3 inches but there was still about 3-4" of thick rough left throughout the golf course.  

Playing from the tees that were one up from the tips, and hitting the golf ball about as well as I can (I think I was a 6 then), I shot 83 on a windless day.  It was an industry conference shotgun so we started on 9-I was 8 over after 9, 10, and 11, 10 over after 13, and played really well after that.

Put me on the back tees, though, and I doubt that I would have broken 90 and most likely the score would have been even higher.  Put me at Bethpage Black from the back tees under those conditions and, even with my course knowledge, breaking 100 would be very, very difficult, particularly with green speeds in the 13-14 range.

[Lou_Duran]

I played TPS on 4/18/02, after the Rees Jones renovation, on a perfect chamber of commerce day.  The rough was pretty light, the greens were holding and very good with no poa anua.  In effect, it was equivalent to a green light plus day for a pro tour event.

Playing to a good 4, mostly, but not always from the new far back tees, I shot an 87.  As points of comparison, I played Maderas from the back tees next morning prior to the KPI and shot a 74, followed by 81, 78 in succeeding days at Barona Creek.

My guess is that a typical 10 will shoot his handicap 50% of the time at US Open TPS if the course is rated an extra stroke per hole, or 106 (78+18+10).  If the wind blows and the greens get crusty, the sky is the limit.  110 is probably a good average target.

Regarding John K's comments on the lack of respect for TPS, I think it has something to do with the course perhaps not matching the expectations generated by the ocean frontage.  Whether the routing could have made better use of the coastline is debatable, particularly since the decision was made to build 36 holes with both courses sharing the most attractive land.  Personally, I like TPS very much and would play it more often if the green fee was under $100.

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