How many have played a William Flynn course?

[Jason Topp]

0

[David Federman]

I have played 16 - surprised about East Potomac and Rock Creek in DC. Played them repeatedly in the 1970's while a student for about $2.00 a round. Caddied and played at Springhaven in high school (when caddies were allowed to play every Monday for free!). Of all the courses listed, my favorite four are Philly Cricket; Philly Country Club; Rolling Green; Sunnybrook;  then North Hills; Manufacturers; Huntington Valley; Seaview Pines and Whitemarsh.

[Doug Wright]

Thanks, everyone for the postings.  Doug, the redesign category contains all sorts of magnitudes of redesign work, for the most part, anything below 50% except in the case of TCC and Merion East where the percentage of work is higher.

In the case of Flynn at Denver CC, the evidence isn't concrete, however a case can be made that he did more than reroute a single hole.  My educated guesses, based on the materials you thankfully provided are that Flynn had a hand in 7 current holes and are as follows:

Flynn’s fifteenth hole design may be the precursor to the current fifth hole, which is attributed to Flynn with revisions by William Diddle.

Flynn’s sixteenth hole design is almost assuredly the precursor to the current sixth hole.

The current seventh hole, attributed to Diddle with revisions by Bill Coore, may be a revision of Flynn’s original thirteenth hole design.

The green end portion of the current fifteenth hole may correspond to the second half of Flynn’s fifth hole plan, attributed to Flynn with revisions by Diddle.

The current sixteenth hole, attributed to Donald Ross, may be derived from Flynn’s sixth hole plan, his only template design, a short dogleg with hazards found along the line of instinct between the tee and the green.

The current seventeenth hole may be derived from Flynn’s shorter 7A hole plan.

The current eighteenth hole would seem to be in the very same location and approximate length as Flynn’s design for the eighteenth hole.

Wayne,

Very interesting. The "official" view that I've seen is that Flynn is credited only with routing the 4th hole at Denver CC. I'm pretty sure they didn't consult you in compiling this. Looking at your comments above, and without having the Flynn drawings with me, there are a couple that I'd say "no way," a couple that I'd say "well maybe" and a couple that I'd say "that makes sense." Let me go back to the Flynn drawings you graciously provided and then I can discuss this more intelligently.

[wsmorrison]

I think some architects share common design traits.  That wouldn't be a surprise.  You can see Flynn in Ross or Ross in Flynn.  I suppose the same is true for Park.  I know that Concord was thought to be a Ross because it looked like a Ross.  That was proved untrue when the Flynn plans were brought to light.

Ron Prichard is an excellent researcher and a superb architect.  Without knowing the specific features that Ron was referring to, this remains a non-starter discussion.  I don't know what Ron said, I don't know what he was told (a Philmont member is the biggest supporter of crediting Flynn).  

I am certain Ron wouldn't want to cause a controversy at the Flynn Cup at Philmont but it is hard to say what the dynamics were.  I don't know what to say.  I think the opportunity existed for you to politely question the matter.  You decided not to then, it may be that you do so in private now.  

In any case, Ron's talk, if as described, does not change the fact that there is no evidence linking Flynn to Philmont, whether a photo of Wm Gordon on opening day exists or not.  That is the issue at hand.

[wsmorrison]

Doug,

I am grateful that you are weighing in on this.  I don't know where the routing of the 4th hole comes in, but that would be fascinating to follow up on.  I also would like to get as close as possible to what was going on out there and I feel certain your input will be invaluable.  I expect to be proved wrong.  It certainly won't be the first or last time  

[Tom Bagley]

Two:  Kittansett and TCC (Brookline).

[Chris_Blakely]

Seaview - Pines
Naval Academy
Rolling Green
Pocono Manor

I have also played Women's National, but that is as much Flynn as Engineer's is an Emmet.

Wayne,

I am confused by the orginal courses attributed to Flynn in Ohio:

9.  Cleveland Heights Golf and Country Club:  1925
10.  The Country Club-Pepper Pike:  1930 (154)
17.  Elyria Country Club:  1925
36.  Pepper Pike Club:  1924 (113)

Did Flynn do 4 full 18 hole courses in Ohio or just three (as named today):

Elyria Country Club
The Country Club
Pepper Pike Club

[astavrides]

Rolling Green
Cascades
Seaview Pines

Will play Cherry Hills on Wed.
Will play Atlantic City CC when I move to NJ in a couple weeks.

Anything else accessable to the public?

[Dan Boerger]

I've played six designed by Flynn and six redesigned by Flynn. I hope to add Indian Creek to the mix this winter if my forever changing travel plans firm up.

[George Pazin]

Played the wonderful Lehigh CC, one of my favorite courses.

Are there any others in eastern PA?





















 

[wsmorrison]

Seaview - Pines
Naval Academy
Rolling Green
Pocono Manor

I have also played Women's National, but that is as much Flynn as Engineer's is an Emmet.

Wayne,

I am confused by the orginal courses attributed to Flynn in Ohio:

9.  Cleveland Heights Golf and Country Club:  1925
10.  The Country Club-Pepper Pike:  1930 (154)
17.  Elyria Country Club:  1925
36.  Pepper Pike Club:  1924 (113)

Did Flynn do 4 full 18 hole courses in Ohio or just three (as named today):

Elyria Country Club
The Country Club
Pepper Pike Club

Chris,

Flynn only designed 3 courses in/around Cleveland.  Cleveland Heights is a Florida golf course in Lakeland.  The property was developed by men from Cleveland.  No doubt the Flynn design at Pepper Pike Club got him the Cleveland Heights job.  I believe he was working on Elyria and Cleveland Heights at the same time, though I'll have to check my notes.

[Chris_Blakely]

Wayne,

Did Flynn design all 27 holes at Cleveland Heights in Lakeland, FL?

[Kyle Harris]

Wayne,

Did Flynn design all 27 holes at Cleveland Heights in Lakeland, FL?

No, the holes that are the furthest south on the property are not Flynn, and two of the Flynn holes are NLE as they are now the city's tennis facility across the street from the clubhouse.

Flynn A 9:
1-3, 6-9

Not sure on the attributions elsewhere, but the stuff around the pond to the south are not the Flynn holes, and both the starts and finishes to those nines are Flynn. In fact, I believe 16 of the 18 Flynn holes exist, though significantly denuded.

[wsmorrison]

Chris,

Here is what I've been able to determine of the Flynn routing at Cleveland Heights still exists:

Hole 1      Flynn Plan (yds/par)      Today
1      390/4            360/4 (A-1)
2      213/3            202/3 (A-2)
3      362/4            352/4 (A-3)
4      451/5            487/5 (A-6)
5      301/4            314/4 (A-7)
6      534/5            536/2 (A-8)
7      422/4            removed
8      383/4            removed
9      192/3            188/3 (A-9)
10      347/4            335/4 (B-1)
11      255/3            338/4 (B-2)
12      412/4            418/4 (B-7)
13      450/5            464/5 (B-8)
14      380/4            380/4 (B-9)
15      343/4            335/4 (C-1)         
16      405/4            421/4 (C-7)
17      136/3            168/3 (C-8)
18      352/4            340/4 (C-9)

[Ed_Baker]

Wayne-o,

12 of his original designs, although those milk guys in Marion are still giving Uncle Freddie credit, golf magazines 100 top classics still lists him as the architect too!

2 redesigns

[wsmorrison]

Eddie,

I hope all is well.  Happy holiday season.  Please send my regards to DMIII.  Those guys in Marion may know the truth, but it will be awhile before the Flynn drawings are hanging in the clubhouse  

I hope you pick a nicer day to visit so we can play the BIG course next time.  However, that was a lot of fun playing in that gale on the little course.  Good Ol' Bill Dow hung in there like a trooper.  We had a bit lower center of gravity, which helped!

[Bill_McBride]

Wayne, growing up in California and living mostly in the Southeast since then, I have not had the opportunity to play Flynn courses.  This is definitely my loss.  I almost had a chance to play Shinnecock but it didn't work out.  

However, I did live in the Northern Virginia area and have played a couple you mention.

Indian Spring - isn't that the 36-hole layout in Maryland north of DC?  I played a couple of times in events there and I think Jerry Kluger told me it is now NLE.  Is that the Flynn you mention?  If so, that's one.  I was never particularly turned on by Indian Spring.

Columbia - I played there several times with a member friend.  Is the current layout the Flynn work?  Great course with a lot of variety and excellent greens.  #15 and #17 are short and quirky but fun, fun, fun.  If that's a Flynn today, that's two.

[wsmorrison]

Bill,

Indian Spring was Flynn's last job.  He died before it was completed.  The initial design was a Donald Ross.  Bobby Brownell, a distinguished regional amateur considered it his second favorite course behind Winged Foot.  The owner sold the club to a developer who sold off 9 holes.  Flynn was brought in to redesign an 18-hole golf course on a much smaller property.  He did this and it was completed by William Gordon after Flynn's death.  The current Indian Spring is not on the same ground as the Flynn and I understand that it is, as you say, underwhelming.

The 1st and 2nd holes are mostly Flynn at Columbia CC.  A number of greens may be as well.  It is hard to tell.  That course is squeezed in but is very nice.  If you like trees, there are dozens of varieties, many brought over by foreign dignitaries.

[Bill_McBride]

Columbia is terrific even if it is squeezed in, because the long par 4s are really strong - #2 from the back, #5, #8? #9?, #18 - while the short par 4s are tricky as hell.  I think that is a hallmark of a really well routed course.  I'm going to assume Flynn didn't have much to do with the routing, as I think the course dates back to the turn of the 20th century.

[wsmorrison]

"I'm going to assume Flynn didn't have much to do with the routing, as I think the course dates back to the turn of the 20th century."

I don't think Flynn had anything to do with the routing as he worked with the existing hole corridors.  Yet, it appears that he created much more of a dogleg on the first hole.

[TEPaul]

My God, Wayno, I cannot believe how many of those courses I've played over the years and I never even thought of it that way until now.

I really am getting old.

[wsmorrison]

Yeah, Tom.   But you're young at heart.   How did HVCC suit your game when you had to face longer hitting competitors?

[Dan Herrmann]

Rolling Green and Lehigh.  Both were absolutely wonderful course designs and have left a lasting impression.  Merion West would be a course I could be happy playing every day.  Most clubs would be lucky to have such a course to call their own - Merion has it as their "other" course.

I've also played Woodcrest, which I think needs some significant tree removal.  There's a good Flynn course hidden amongst the trees there.  Woodcrest could be a fantastic renovation project - I remember seeing some fairway bunkers (on #10??) that had been grassed in and essentially forgotten.  I also think that some of the holes there aren't original.

Merion East (I don't have the words to describe the experience).

I've had the good luck to walk Pine Valley three times - two Crump Cups and one Philly Open.  

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