Doak zeros....

[Joe Bausch]

JoeB:

Inniscrone's #16 is most definitely a highly controversial hole but not without its supporters. I believe GI's Michael Bamberger thought the hole was wonderful.

I have no doubt at all that the architect(s) knew very well it would be controversial and highly so.

It's interesting to me that you think the right fairway is for big hitters. The architect himself told me that was not exactly his intention when he designed the hole. He said that fairway was mostly for short hitters and some missed shots to be played to in two.

My advice to him long ago was that #16 would be so much more acceptable for most everyone if that bank to the right of the green was reworked into short grass to allow it to be something of a down ramp from the right fairway or something of a kicker from the left fairway.

That, in fact, would provide a number of additional options which have never existed on that hole.

I think big hitters have the option of playing the hole to the right, but I hope I didn't indicate this was the preferred route.  I think your are right TP in that the fairway to the right is typically played by the shorter hitters and the mods you talked about near the green would give it more options.  But for me that really changes the way the hole looks and takes away some of the uniqueness.

[Randy Thompson]

We all define O differently, I played what I condsider to be a zero only once in my life and i DON'T even remember the name of the course. It was in Vegas, some ten to fifteen years ago with 150 dollar green fee, target golf at its worst, with small to medium rock rough. Spent the majority of the time looking for my balls in the rocks as apparently did the majority of people that day because after four and half hours, I walked off and quit after the 13th hole. Maybe I could have completed the round if I they had slot machines on the tees to play while you waited, if they had thought of that or incorporate this idea in the future, then I would give it a new rating of 1.

[Mark Smolens]

I have to concur with Mike Sweeney on Karsten at ASU.  It's cramped and shoved into an area perhaps too small for a "championship" course, but they don't kill you with the rates, they have (or at least had the last time I was there) carts that carry 4 bags, so you can walk if you like, and the green complexes were varied and in decent shape.  I'd have a lot more courses as zeros if this is one.

[TEPaul]

" But for me that really changes the way the hole looks and takes away some of the uniqueness."

JoeB:

I hear you but I think reworking that entire bank to the right of the green into short grass would make the hole play even better and more interesting and I think it would make it look even better too.

I did look at it carefully once with that in mind but that was a few years ago and I'd need to look again.

My recollection is that the bank to the right of the green gets steeper the closer it gets to the green and that creates some real problems in both play and actually trying to turn that area into a down ramp from the right fairway and a kicker from the left fairway.

What I mean by that is if one wanted to make that bank less steep right next to the green you'd have to start way back in that right fairway and that would take way too much work and it really would change the entire shape of that right landform near the green.

But if the way it is now could be transitioned to short grass you'd actually have a situation where balls missed slightly right from the left fairway would carom hard left and across the green and off left but if the ball was played higher up on the right bank it could just feed down more gentily.

And from the right fairway if one wanted to use the bank they would have to land the ball way back and let it filter down the steeper part close to the green. Land the ball too close to the green from the right and it would also rocket across the green.

The basic idea would be the best play would be to land farther right and farther from the green from the left fairway and farther back from the right one.

Now come on Joe, just try to tell me that would not be some pretty cool and nuancy playability and options. It would in fact be sort of counter-intuitive but the point is it could work for the savy and clever player as some really cool options.

Matter of fact those options would be so counter-intuitive and so cool it might even get some competitors who hit the green to get upset claiming their opponent actually missed the shot worse and got rewarded for it.

And what could be better than "them kind of apples"?

I love stuff that gets that kind of reaction. If you can get into your opponent's head by some kind of improbable and purposeful play what's all around better than that?  

[Joe Bausch]

" But for me that really changes the way the hole looks and takes away some of the uniqueness."

JoeB:

I hear you but I think reworking that entire bank to the right of the green into short grass would make the hole play even better and more interesting and I think it would make it look even better too.

I did look at it carefully once with that in mind but that was a few years ago and I'd need to look again.

My recollection is that the bank to the right of the green gets steeper the closer it gets to the green and that creates some real problems in both play and actually trying to turn that area into a down ramp from the right fairway and a kicker from the left fairway.

What I mean by that is if one wanted to make that bank less steep right next to the green you'd have to start way back in that right fairway and that would take way too much work and it really would change the entire shape of that right landform near the green.

But if the way it is now could be transitioned to short grass you'd actually have a situation where balls missed slightly right from the left fairway would carom hard left and across the green and off left but if the ball was played higher up on the right bank it could just feed down more gentily.

And from the right fairway if one wanted to use the bank they would have to land the ball way back and let it filter down the steeper part close to the green. Land the ball too close to the green from the right and it would also rocket across the green.

The basic idea would be the best play would be to land farther right and farther from the green from the left fairway and farther back from the right one.

Now come on Joe, just try to tell me that would not be some pretty cool and nuancy playability and options. It would in fact be sort of counter-intuitive but the point is it could work for the savy and clever player as some really cool options.

Matter of fact those options would be so counter-intuitive and so cool it might even get some competitors who hit the green to get upset claiming their opponent actually missed the shot worse and got rewarded for it.

And what could be better than "them kind of apples"?

I love stuff that gets that kind of reaction. If you can get into your opponent's head by some kind of improbable and purposeful play what's all around better than that?  

Tom, your idea is very creative.  Too bad golf courses couldn't be like a video game and for 16 at 'Scrone one could hit a button on the tee to determine whether you want the original or the 'new and improved TP version'!  

[Jay Flemma]

I think the "don't play" recommendation was a bit of tongue in cheek hyperbole, that went something like "don't play under any circumstance, lest your architectural mind be poisoned for life!"

I don't think he meant it as a "go bowling instead", but as a blast against excessive, bloated, wasteful architecture.

Hey Mike!

That's exactly why I gave atunyote the zero...excessive bloated wasteful...good pick up with shore gate by the way...although I did get an eagle there!  One of only two...on par fours.  (No, no hole-in-one yet...)

I dont think Pine Hill is a zero...that's the one I htink wuld be a doak 4ish...doesn't he call a 3 "average"?  I think that's correct.

[Kirk Stewart]

Rich:  Hubbard Heights (E. Gaynor Brennan today) was a 1 on the Doak scale -- a very basic course with clear architectural malpractice and/or poor maintenance.  You had to really make a mess to get a 0.

I had to go back and look up the zeroes again; it's been a long time.  When the book was published, GOLFWEEK's review spent an inordinate amount of time focusing on the zeroes -- there isn't even a list in the book, you really have to search through and find them as I just did -- and trashing the book for being so harsh.  They even had a guy go to Stone Harbor and write a good review of it to show how wrong I was!

The zeroes were as follows:

Stone Harbor, NJ  (since changed considerably)
Kiln Creek, VA  (every hole built up ten feet in the air on fill to get rid of dirt from a development)
Renaissance Park, NC  (since closed I think, landfill special)
Heather Glen, SC (third nine)
Atlanta National, GA (since changed considerably)
Terradyne, KS
Karsten Course at ASU, AZ
Cypress GC, CA (since plowed under)
Hokkaido GC (Lion course), Japan (I wonder if it's been abandoned)

I think I'll let Shivas defend me on whether the reviews were justified, considering the track record since then.

The list above is from my 1994 edition.  There might have been 1-2 more in the 1996 version that I saw in between.  There were also a handful of other courses rated "0-5" which meant they were close to a 0 for me but that others would not find them so objectionable.

I did think the attention paid to the zeroes was overkill.  There were less than ten of them out of 800 courses in the book, and I didn't highlight them at all.

Mr Doak,

When was the last time you visited Atlanta Nat'l and what would you have rated it ?

[Adrian_Stiff]

i still cant understand why doak mentioned old head in the confidential guide since old head did not open until late 1997!!
i also remember something in the book about Tom refering to the land being too small for a course.I think the course is great and have been lucky enough to have played it in its original and present state to see how much it has changed and developed over the last 10 years.As for Mr.Arbles comments i cant really take too seriously as he has not experienced the place.

Don- I have heard mixed opinions on OH. Always good from people that have played it, negative ones from people on this site, it only emphasises how often this site is unfortunatey 'the minority opinion'. The facts are it has made the top 100 in at least one publication and a few years back the owners were offered a staggering sum, I think $45,000,000 to sale, they declined....so some people think highly of it and some give it a Doak ZERO. I have not played it but it looks to have some stunning holes.

[Jason Connor]

I was surprised to see the Karsten Course on this list!  It's the only Doak 0 I've played.

My playing partner hit the powerlines on the par 3 (I think it was a par 3).  So I was amazed that on such a course there were in-play power lines.

I didn't think it was awful.  I thought it was much like that style of Pete Dye course.  I can think of other expensive to build and maintain courses I thought were more atrocious.  

[Tom Dunne]

Technically speaking is a Doak 0 a course where you drive 100 miles to go play and once there you refuse to get outta your car in the parking lot?

This happened to me in Wales once. Drove a solid hour and a half out of my way to check out Borth & Ynyslas GC, then turned around in the parking lot and drove back to Aberdovey to try to squeeze in a round before dark. Jim Finegan played Borth this year and said it was good fun, though, so what do I know!

[Ken_Cotner]

The zeroes were as follows:

Renaissance Park, NC  (since closed I think, landfill special)

Nope, still open.

Ken

[astavrides]

I mentioned recently that I thought Eagle Vail is a Doak 0. Looking at the definition, maybe not since I'm not sure they spent a ridiculous sum of money there. Plus the opening tee shot off the side of the hill is pretty fun. OK give it a Doak 0.5

The new Broadmoor mountain is pretty fun. (never played the old one) Not a good value the money of course, and not as good as the East course.

I thought Eagle Vail was ok.  What do you think is so bad about it?
[/quote

Eagle Vail? Contrived (all the mountain holes), boring and unmemorable; also encroaching housing nearly everywhere. Other than that it's fine.

Glad to hear the new Mountain Course is OK; to even mention it in the same sentence as the East Course is saying something.

After one play, I would say the following about Eagle Vail...

There is less housing there than ~75% of the courses in the Denver area.  OK, that doesnt say much.  Only maybe half of the holes have visable houses--and not as encroaching or ugly as many other courses.  

I enjoyed the short par 3 #5 over the river as well as the short par 4 #6.  The sharply downhill mid-iron par 3 tenth is also memorable, as are the scenic last 3 holes.  The short par 4 16th is perhaps too targety though.  Some of the greens are very slopey, maybe too much so.

It is too pricey like almost all the CO mtn courses, but I played it at the right time, and got a good deal.  I give it a Doak 3 or 4.

[Gary Slatter]

Never played a 0, but a movie 0 is Lambs for Lions!

[mike_malone]

  The description of a Doak "0" sounds like Tattersall to me. In fact, they changed the name of the course to protect the innocent. It's Broad Run. In case someone invites you to play there you will know why to just say "no".

[Bill Brightly]

Crystal Springs in Hamburg, NJ.

beautiful piece of property, great views, including an old quarry, but a waste of a golf course.

Ridiculous mounds throughout the fairways, sidehill, uphill, downhill lies at random. Throw in cart paths only, with mounds between the path and your ball so can't see the ball and need to bring 4 clubs.

[Mike_Cirba]

Man, I am definitely hearing some solid nominations.

I'm thinking about nominating Barnsley Gardens Resort (The General) in Georgia, although Mike Christensen likes it so perhaps I missed something.  

[mike_malone]

 I think many people do not like #2 at BR. It is a blind layup that could put you in a spot where you can't reach the green. Many don't like the routing which has loooooong distances from many greens to tees.

   But, for me it is the artificial mounding along the edges of the fairway ON INTERESTING TERRAIN !!!!

[Joe Bausch]

I think many people do not like #2 at BR. It is a blind layup that could put you in a spot where you can't reach the green. Many don't like the routing which has loooooong distances from many greens to tees.

   But, for me it is the artificial mounding along the edges of the fairway ON INTERESTING TERRAIN !!!!

Here is the view of the blind tee shot Mayday is referring to:



I don't really consider this a completely blind tee shot, but perhaps I'm blind.    Any tee ball out there maybe 180-210 yards allows a view of the green like this one:



I think #2 is one of the better holes at Broad Run, although the hill there on the right in the 1st pic is clearly courtesy of an earth mover, probably to protect people in the 3rd fairway coming back.

In many places it seems Jones sort of banked edges of fairways to make them play easier.  Like on #14:



Is BR deserving of a Doak zero?  I'm sure plenty would think so.  Not me.

[mike_malone]

 Joe,

   In your first photo look way in the background to that hole that looks to be in the next county !! See that mounding.

   I never heard that it makes the hole easier. It seems to hide the cartpath, but is an eyesore .

  When you look back from the landing area, Joe, where is the tee ?

[astavrides]

the other thing at broad run is that you have to be a mountain goat to descend those some of those banks from the cart-path only-path to the ball in the fairway.  at least they lowered the green fees when the changed the name or the course.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe,

   In your first photo look way in the background to that hole that looks to be in the next county !! See that mounding.

   I never heard that it makes the hole easier. It seems to hide the cartpath, but is an eyesore .

Yeah, that is the par 4 16th:

[Kirk Gill]

It wouldn't matter to me if Old Head was the best course on the planet - they still should not have built a course on that site.  Its far too precious to waste on golf.

If you continue this thought, what other courses could be said to fit this description? Cypress Point? Cape Kidnappers?

[Jason McNamara]

Add New South Wales to that list, Kirk.

[Dan Boerger]

Old Head has some excellent holes IMO. In fact the only hole at Old Head I really don't care for is #17. Good point about Cypress or even Pebble for that matter. Magnificent property and I'm not sure why golf shouldn't be part of the history at OH.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm not sure there would ever be such a thing as a consensus "0".  If there was it must really suck.

I have never been back to any of the courses I rated a "0" -- why would I? -- so I can't say what I think of any subsequent changes.  I do know that Renaissance Park was closed (at least for a time) after somebody was injured or killed in an explosion from smoking near the golf course and igniting some gases.  My view of the course was very biased, I didn't even walk the whole thing, but the first hole alone was hold-your-nose bad; in fact I hired an intern a couple of years ago because he chose to try and redesign that hole.

My inclusion of Old Head in the original book goes back to my familiarity with trying to do a routing for the property in 1994.  We wound up not doing the job, for a lot of reasons which I won't detail here.  However I was aware it would be opening just after my book came out, so I did include something about the place in the Gossip section.