[Steve Verde]

To piggyback off of Wayne's thread, I would like to see what are the favorite courses of William Flynn out there. Can't include Shinnecock if you've played it and it must be one of his original desings.

Personally I've played 6 of his originals (Doylestown, Plymouth, Rolling Green, Philly Country, Manufacturers', and Merion West) and I've played only the front 9 at Huntingdon Valley and I would say my favorite is Manufacturers' by the slightest of margins over Rolling Green and Philly Country

[mike_malone]

 Steve,

    This could be a good example of the question I asked last week. I think for the Philly Flynn's it comes down to what each person considers the most important criteria in their evaluation. As for myself, I am too biased to answer the question.

   I wonder in your case what is the thing that puts Mannies on top for you.

[JESII]

Steve,

       I wonder in your case what is the thing that puts Mannies on top for you.

Mike,

He already answered that...he said he only played 9 holes at HVCC...

[wsmorrison]

Steve,

I have favorites other than Shinnecock Hills (my favorite).  In Philadelphia, it is hard to decide as they are all so good. If I had to answer and was limiting the discussion to the course only, I would have to say Rolling Green (for the record, I was a member).  However, Huntingdon Valley is so close that it might as well be a tie.  A small notch below would be Philadelphia Country Club, Merion West, Lancaster and Manufacturers.

Outside of Philadelphia, my favorites would have to include Indian Creek, Pocantico Hills, The Country Club in Pepper Pike, OH and Kittansett with Cascades a bit below this top-tier among other reasons, partially due to RTJ changes on holes 14 and 15.

Of the NLE Flynn courses, I would include Boca Raton South.  What a marvelous golf course that would be worth bringing back in some conceptual form.

Sorry for being so non-committal  

[Mike_Cirba]

Agree that I've yet to play a bad William Flynn golf hole.

I thought I had found one for years with the couple of holes around the clubhouse on severe land at Philmont North (including the abysmal par 5 ninth), but then later found that it was designed by Willie Park.   (For the record, the stretches in the middle of each nine and the vast majority of all the holes on that course are really terrific).

Given that admitted difficulty in slicing and dicing among Flynn's I've played, the two that stand out to me are;

Huntingdon Valley - A fabulous course, but made all the better by consistent firm-and-fast conditioning that sets it apart.

Lancaster - Flynn was a great router and most of his routings are on relatively tight properties.   Lancaster provides a more spacious scale for Flynn, and he succeeds in creating an appropriately grand, large-scale course that plays WAY longer than the card yardage.

[JSlonis]

It's a tough choice to make.  Out of the courses I've played, there  is a group that stands out to me, they include Huntingdon Valley, Rolling Green, Philly CC, Indian Creek, Lancaster CC, Lehigh CC & Manufacturer's.

If I had to pick one, I would say Huntingdon Valley CC.  It has a tremendous variety of holes, and with the topgraphy and routing, you are asked to hit shots from every conceivable lie/stance.  Another reason I would choose HVCC is due to the conditioning and setup of the course on a day to day basis.  The Supt. Scott Anderson and the club in general promote firm & fast conditions.  I can't think of another club in the Phila area that maintains this type of play on a more consistent basis.

[JSlonis]

Interesting to see the similarities in thought with Mike & Wayne.  I hadn't read your responses before posting my choice.  The choice for me is very similar to Wayne's.  I think HVCC and Rolling Green are 1 and 1A for me.  Although I give the slight nod to HVCC.

[wsmorrison]

I agree on the excellent work that Scott Anderson does to present that course in the way he does.  His methods are unique and the results truly outstanding.  I have to say that the way Merion East and Philadelphia Country Club are maintained are equally outstanding.  All three approaches are different but they all put playability first and foremost and strive for everyday play as firm and as fast as possible.  

I gave the nod to Rolling Green on the basis of architecture alone.  If HVCC restored the left side of the 2nd and 3rd greens, why I could see the nod going to HVCC.

[JSlonis]

I agree on the excellent work that Scott Anderson does to present that course in the way he does.  His methods are unique and the results truly outstanding.  I have to say that the way Merion East and Philadelphia Country Club are maintained are equally outstanding.  All three approaches are different but they all put playability first and foremost and strive for everyday play as firm and as fast as possible.  

I gave the nod to Rolling Green on the basis of architecture alone.  If HVCC restored the left side of the 2nd and 3rd greens, why I could see the nod going to HVCC.

Wayne,

What areas of the left part of the 2nd and 3rd greens are you referring to?  My initial thinking is that neither of them were as raised up on the far left edge as they are currently.  With the slope toward the valley, I could see the green continuing to run off from right to left.

[Cory Lewis]

I'm sure Wayne will kill me for this one, but I will say my favorite Flynn is Lancaster, slight edge over Shinny.  There's just something about that course that intrigues me.  The routing is superb and there isn't a single weak hole.

[mike_malone]

 Jim,

   You are a funny guy. I didn't want you to think that comment of yours went unnoticed.

[wsmorrison]

Cory,

There's no hard and fast rules in play here.  It is all basically subjective and your opinion is important.  It isn't right, but it is important  

Jamie,

The second green has a scalloped edge on the left.  It was built up a fair amount removing the right to left slope.  A draw lie from the fairway required a fade to hold that green when firm and fast.  Either that or an accurate blind shot over the hump on the right to feed precisely onto the green.

The third green may have been extended a bit back from the original design--according to Scott Anderson.  In any case, the left side was built up to hold more shots on the green.  At one time, this hole played more like a Redan green with Flynn's typical narrow steep runup to the green found on the 7th holes at Shinnecock and at Philadelphia Country.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Shinnecock for emotional reasons, HVCC for the experience, the terrain, and the design.  So it's a tie.  

[Joe Bausch]

If many people like Huntington and Lancaster as much as Rolling Green or even more, then I've got to see HVCC and Lancaster in person.  I'm a huge fan of RG.

[wsmorrison]

Asked about the favorite course of classic era American architects, which architect would be the one that had the most variety in responses?  

Of international architects, Colt may inspire the most variety in a poll of favorites.

If there is an arguable number one (like Shinnecock Hills for Flynn) what accounts for the gap between the overwhelmingly selected favorite and anything else in the portfolio of the various architects?  Or asked another way, Why is everything else by Flynn so subordinate to Shinnecock Hills?  I would argue, in the case of Flynn, that two courses that would be at or near the top of any list of Flynn favorites no longer exist--Boca Raton South and Mill Road Farm.

[Kyle Harris]

My bias is apparent (worked at Huntingdon Valley) but that course is my favorite in the world, period.

I've talked with Wayne at length, and Rolling Green has a bit more in terms of variety, but the routing of Huntingdon Valley is subject to the shape and it couldn't really be utilized any better.

For me, there's no greater feeling in golf than walking over the hill from the parking lot and seeing the course spread out in the valley below.

[JESII]

What am I missing at Rolling Green when you say it has more variety?

[mike_malone]

 More Italians I think !

[Steve Verde]

I actually think the thing that's holding back Rolling Green is a possible lack of variety. By my count there are 5 doglegs on the back 9 and correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember there being any long par 4's (440+ yards). This is why I give Manufacturers' the slight nod of it.  It has a great mixture of long and short holes with nice elevation changes and is just a really enjoyable place to play.

Cory,
I know Lancaster is an outstanding course but is it really in the same class as Shinnecock?

[Kyle Harris]

What am I missing at Rolling Green when you say it has more variety?

The par 3s and 5s mainly.

The card yardage on the par 4s at RG may be nothing, but a lot of those holes sure play longer... like 4, 8, 9 (a 650 yard par 5 can play LONGER...) 13 and 15, that and we must count 18 in the par 4 category as well.

Rolling Green also demands less in terms of shot shape, and more in terms of pure placement. Huntingdon Valley pigeon holes a lot of tee shots into certain areas (the options on 1 typically involved way down the hole, the right rough or left rough, for example) due to the slopes and demand shot shape moreso than at Rolling Green.

Again, all my opinions and all, but I think Rolling Green is more diverse that HVCC though not better.

[mike_malone]

 Steve,

   I'm having trouble getting to 5 doglegs on the back. Certainly 15-17-18 are doglegs and I guess you could say 12 is (pretty straightlegged dog though; I doubt it could run ).

  That leaves 13 as your other possibility.


    As for your long par fours just think of the short par fives as long par fours and your problem is solved! However, we have moved some tees back in recent years to get close to those numbers.

   13 is the longest 434 I have ever played.

[Steve Verde]

Steve,

   I'm having trouble getting to 5 doglegs on the back. Certainly 15-17-18 are doglegs and I guess you could say 12 is (pretty straightlegged dog though; I doubt it could run ).

  That leaves 13 as your other possibility.


    As for your long par fours just think of the short par fives as long par fours and your problem is solved! However, we have moved some tees back in recent years to get close to those numbers.

   13 is the longest 434 I have ever played.

I thought 11 was a slight dogleg but I might just be imagining things. 13 only plays long because you can't hit driver and have to lay up short of the ravine.

[mark chalfant]

1. Philadelphia CC   by a hair

2.Rolling  Green,  thanks  mayday  and wayne  !!

3. TCC   Pepper Pike  (back  nine)  

[Gerry B]

shinnecock followed by :

atlantic city
indian creek
philly country club

[James Bennett]

Rolling Green 6  to Huntingdon Valley 4.

As long as I don't have to use all of the new tees, and I can play RG #18 from a forward tee (ie as a par 4).


I think Flynn had a bigger challenge with the land at Huntingdon Valley and so that may well have been a greater test of his skills, not that the land at Rolling Green would have been a cinch to design a course of the quality that RGGC is.


James B

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