Can Asian culture take the you out of the American golf model?

[John Kavanaugh]

The Doak scale uses you fifteen times in describing how or why we should like courses.  I don't know anything about Asian culture beyond what I learned as a young boy when watching Kwai Chang Caine traveling the American west.  What factors of Asian culture do you see or have experienced that may eventually lead golf architecture to new and exciting directions?  How do you see anyone, Asian or not, getting the you out of the game and do you see it as a good thing?

[JMorgan]

John, I don't know how it would be applied to golf architecture or the game, but the second wave of Chinese influence on Japanese culture in the form of Zen Buddhism (which replace Pure Land Buddhism) certainly shaped most of the aspects we associate with traditional Japanese culture, such as dry landscape gardens, Noh theater, the tea ceremony, Shoin architecture, landscape painting, etc. and emphasized meditation as a means of enlightenment, mu-shin, or passing beyond oneself and the mind.  Not too many golf courses were built in the Muromachi Era (1336-1573), however.

[John Kavanaugh]

Would have the Chinese influence been a natural transition or something resulting from war.  One thing I have never liked about golf is the use of the flagstick.  Could Asian culture and love of natural landscape take minimalism to a new level.  Isn't the flagstick really more about you the golfer than the course itself and the role it plays in nature.  My first prediction...The flagstick will go.

[John Kavanaugh]

How does the Asian concept of fairness compare to what America now expects.  Is it safe to say that courses in Asia will be allowed if not expected to be more penal or quirky if that is a better term.

[Tom_Doak]

John:

My small knowledge of golf in Asia (I've only played in Japan) is not too encouraging in this regard.

Japan and some of the other Asian cultures revere the number 72, so pretty much every course in Japan has been designed par 36-36 -72 as a result.

Many of the Japanese courses built in the 1990's were operated with separate tee times for the front and back nines with a one-hour meal break in between.  Also, at a couple of courses I saw, there was a tea-house type halfway house at the tee of each of the four par-3's where you could wait while the group in front was playing the hole.

They also had a small metal plate in the bottom of the cup so that when you made a putt it rang a little bell.

[John Kavanaugh]

I can't say that I see any of the above as bad, just different.  Isn't it common for Japanese business men to have very little concern about what time they get home.  I love a long leisurely day filled with food and drink.

At least with the bell you get an idea who holes out and who picks up.

[Eric_Terhorst]

John,

"What factors of Asian culture do you see or have experienced that may eventually lead golf architecture to new and exciting directions?"

Your question reminds me of being initiated as a 17-yo midwestern kid to Chinese food, in San Francisco, at Yen Ching's, which turned out to be one of my favorite Chinese places ever.  It opened my eyes to things well beyond my prior experience--if architects could strive to do some of that for American golfers in every project, perhaps we would really see some "new and exciting directions."  

The description of Japanese golf by Tom Doak below somehow reminds me of the article we saw posted here recently about the "level of service" at the Madison Club in Palm Springs.  Not my cup of tea, har, har, so I hope American golf doesn't stray too far in that direction.

Many of the Japanese courses built in the 1990's were operated with separate tee times for the front and back nines with a one-hour meal break in between.  Also, at a couple of courses I saw, there was a tea-house type halfway house at the tee of each of the four par-3's where you could wait while the group in front was playing the hole.

They also had a small metal plate in the bottom of the cup so that when you made a putt it rang a little bell.

[Peter Pallotta]

I'm just guessing here, John, but I think you might have it backwards.  

I read recently that the #1 medical procedure in Asian countries is people (mostly youngish women) having their eyes 'done' so as to look more western.

You might be thinking of how nice a Zen rock garden might look as, say, a hazard. Yes. But I don't think you'll be seeing it any time soon, either here or in Asia.

For Asian golf in the future, I'm thinking instead the puffy upholstered look, and maybe the big 4-door sedan, and the Mall of America...    

Peter  

[Matt_Sullivan]

With the possible exception of Japan, Asian golf is pretty much like US resort-style golf, except that in Asia the rounds are slower and more expensive and the players have less etiquette and higher scores.

There is no real Asian influence yet in the playing of golf or the design of golf courses. As yet, Asian cultural or religious elements that one might think could resonate with golf (anything from Buddhism to Confucianism, to the love of a well planned garden) have had limited impact on everyday golf in Asia

[John Kavanaugh]

I believe that Asian golf architecture will find its own (not its you) in a generation or so when the American influence is not so prominent.  I am curious what we may think that will be.  Obviously we will also need to relearn how to analyse greatness outside our you mentality.